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Volume #0378 January 27, 2000
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The get-with-it sound for everyone who cares
Subject: it's all marketing?
Received: 01/27/00 12:25 am
From: Nat Kone
To: Spectropop!
Joseph Scott wrote:
>As in every other decade, the way to market records
>to young people was to tell them what they wanted to hear.
>Young people generally wanted to hear about something
>vaguely like a "counterculture" and all that good stuff.
>
>The funny thing is if you try to actually rationally apply
>those "street cred etc." criteria retroactively to '60s
>acts, it just doesn't work.
>
> Why do many people consider Donovan more hip than Mel
>Torme? Because he's YOUNGER. That's IT. There's this
>perceived distinction between (1) the vocal groups who
>were marketed in the '60s to older people and (2) the
>vocal groups who were marketed in the '60s to younger
>people -- that's what it comes down to...
In the last few years, my collecting has been almost
entirely focussed on all the stuff I ignored as a young
rock n roll fan. A lot of it has to do with just being
sick of hearing the original versions of lots of songs. So
I'd rather hear the Hollyridge Strings do the Beatles than
hear the Beatles do themselves. But at the same time, I
can't ignore the fact that though I may be sick of a lot
of "classic rock", there were great tunes and that's why I
can enjoy all these "versions" I'm now marinating in.
Somewhere in all this looking back, I have managed to
eliminate my "rock credibility" test and so now I can
listen to Andy Williams singing "God Only Knows" and love
it because he has a beautiful voice, it's a nice
arrangement and it's a great song. What's not to like? But
that doesn't mean that "rock credibility" - or
"counterculture" - has no meaning or that it's all
marketing. I quite enjoy Mel Torme's interpretation of
"Sunshine Superman" (and "Happy Together" and even "Take a
Letter Maria") and there's no doubt he was a true hipster
but the first thing you have to say is that it is
Donovan's song. I'm not going to try and assign utter
"purity" to Donovan's intentions but when he wrote and
recorded "SS", he wasn't thinking the same thing Mel was
when he later covered it. No matter how cynical I can try
to be, it's still hard to argue against the idea that
there's more "authenticity" in Donovan's record (one of
the first LP's that never left my turntable btw) than in
Mel's cover version. And if as a teenager, I loved
Donovan's record and laughed at Mel's, it wasn't simply a
matter of falling for the marketing. Authenticity and
intentions do matter. And sometimes they're perceptible. I
take your point and of course I agree that marketing
foisted a lot of inauthentic - and just plain "bad" -
stuff on me as a teenager. And that the "counterculture
test" had me ignoring a lot of great stuff. I take your
point, in spite of the fact that the Mel/Donovan example
is a bad one. Like I said, virtually ALL I listen to these
days is stuff I ignored - or laughed at - as a teenager.
And though "irony" and "camp" play a role in my enjoyment
on occasion, that's not always the case. A lot of folks
made beautiful music in spite of suspect intentions. Which
is how I think of a lot of the sunshine pop I'm finding.
But the difference between the Association and the
Lettermen is about way more than marketing or perceived
credibility. Sometimes a musician looks at the music he's
been playing, then looks at the music that seems to be
selling and in trying to create a hybrid, comes up with
The Byrds. Or the same process happens and you get the
Living Voices doing "Positively Fourth Street and other
message folk songs."
Nat
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Re: unison versus harmony
Received: 01/27/00 12:25 am
From: Ron Sauer
To: Spectropop!
Nat Kone writes:
>I don't know if the KS4 lasted into the sixties and made
>hippy records - I haven't seen any.
The Kirby Stone 4 made a great duet record in the last
sixties with the Tokens. They listed thenselves as "The US
Double Quartet" and the song was "Life is Groovy" on BT
Puppy records. Does anyone know if that one has made it to
CD? My copy is very scratchy.
Ron
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Very true
Received: 01/27/00 12:25 am
From: Carol Kaye
To: Spectropop!
>>>>>Young people always want to perceive their music
as very distinct from their parents'. (Whether it
really is or not is completely irrelevant to that.)
E.g. in the late '50s Elvis didn't put a sticker on his
records saying "Your parents will enjoy this too because
my pianist Dudley Brooks used to be Benny Goodman's
pianist<<<<
You should have seen the ages of the studio musicians who
played on all the rock and roll hit records we put out in
the 60s LA recording scene. And the fact that a great deal
of them were fine jazz musicians, and the rest mostly
big-band musicians, hardly a rocker on those recordings.
And around the younger newer bunch of producers (who we
quickly surmised didn't know much about producing actually
but they had the confidence and the money to hire us), we
had to keep saying to each other in our group "shhhh....
don't tell anyone we play jazz"....in spite of themselves,
we got them hits anyway.
But the business started out with very WISE EXPERIENCED
older producers like Bumps Blackwell (Sam Cooke recordings,
listen to the great hip background vocalists....all
bigband top great studio singers, never rockers or soul
groups), who is more or less unheralded...he is one of the
biggest pioneers of the 60s recorded pop, rock and soul hit
sounds...he was smart to use all-experience finest studio
musicians, and the rest followed suite.
Some of the record co's in the mid 60s tried to record
with their own artists' road groups, thinking they could
save the studio musicians' fees (we were charging
double-scale to most of them by that time), and not have
to pay into our benefits, pension funds, etc. through our
Musicians' Union. They wanted to "save money".
Well, that lasted a few short weeks, they humbly begged us
to come back to work for them, after wasting not only
precious expensive studio time, but getting a terrible
product to boot. They didn't try that again until way
later in the 70s when the groups like Toto (I taught David
Hungate btw, the bassist), some were able to play their own
music well.
It's got something to do with marketing alright. Do you
think the Beach Boys would have sold as well if the public
knew (back then) who really played on their recordings? Or
all the cute-guy surf groups? Or Sonny & Cher who created
their own hippie images? You should have seen the
conventional clothing we all wore, the butch haircuts, and
I looked like a prim school-teacher (and still do), etc.
Or Motown for that matter either? The 40% that was cut out
here in the 60s, from 1962 on (they had their 2 floors of
offices out here since then). Or the Monkees who bravely
held press conferences denying that "anyone was cutting
their hit tracks" while we were in the next-door studio at
RCA cutting their tracks?
The younger generation would NOT have bought "their"
records if they knew that people as old as "their" parents
were not only performing on "their" favorite records but
were coming up with the MUSICAL IDEAS for them too (except
for Brian Wilson, he was the only one, outside of Frank
Zappa who had the great ideas, yet many of our guitarists,
Hal Blaine on drums, others did contribute some ideas too
on Brian's stuff too).
YES OF COURSE, it was a sham, a sham that worked...those
records were hot sellers. No-one wanted the public to know
the "truth" including US!!!! We not only made fabulous
monies, but it was the respect, the golden era of
recording insuring us good-paying work, and we never had
to take the lower-paying jobs to go on the road and leave
our families either.
>>>As in every other decade, the way to market records to
young people was to tell them what they wanted to hear.
Young people generally wanted to hear about something
vaguely like a "counterculture" and all that good stuff.
(These things never change.) Magazines such as Rolling
Stone played into this. The rock groups played into this.
Basically everybody played into this. As a result, the big
<<<<
EXACTLY!! Milli-Vanilli was ONLY the tip of the iceberg
then, and even now I know many fine musicians who have to
sign contracts not to "tell" that they played on such and
such a recording, doing their studio work, it continues on.
>>>>Who smoked more pot, Zappa or Simon? Gee, THAT can't
be what makes music good, can it, whether the artists have
an ingenuous, serious commitment to drugs? :-) Who hung out
with Coltrane, Thiele or Joplin? Oh wait, never mind. :-)<<
<<
They sure wouldn't have gotten far with our coffee-crowd,
it was coffee that cut the 60s hit records, we could cut
an album in 6 hours.....in the 70s, with the cocaine/
pot-musicians, it took months.
I worked a lot for Thiele for commercials (and a few
albums too), never saw him on drugs at all, but he sure
had his coffee too. Did a lot for the Association, some
for Simon and Garfunkle (some real boring dates I'll tell
you, you see my picture on the S&G album, bored up to my
eyebrows), they were "slow" but we would knock out hit
tracks in seconds it seemed. Why? NO DRUGS, we were not
interested in drugs, nor booze, you never get anything
done with that crap - however glamorous it looks to the
lay-public, most of whom used drugs because they "thought
their favorite hit-makers did"....boy did they get fooled -
it's a business guys! An image-making business, not a
hobby!
The Byrds had their studio musicians too do their things
too, altho' evidently Roger did play some elec. 12-string
on his stuff, yet he had the very conventional Dennis
Budimer do some of that too.....Dennis always brought his
lunch to work, still is a stick-in-the-mud but a helluva
great great jazz guitarist too....he made more money than
Tommy Tedesco doing studo work.
>>>>Why do many people consider Donovan more hip than Mel
Torme? Because he's YOUNGER. That's IT. (Note that Torme's
cover of "Sunshine Superman," which is excellent, has been
marketed on CD as camp,<<<<
Well, now you're talking about vocal style phrasings too...
Mel is jazz, always has been no matter if he's singing
"Satisfaction" or "It Could Happen To You".
I played bass on his hot-selling commercial albums in the
60s, early 70s...we kidded about those when I did a
symphony show with him around 1986 in Denver...he told me
that his "Games People Play" I played bass on
(wall-to-wall notes too, I was trying to wake up a dragging
sleepy drummer, we laughed about that too, he knew) was his
biggest money-making recording of all time. It's just a
matter of styles between Donovon and Mel Torme, depending
upon the style of music you like here.
Great post Joseph Scott! You got the essence of what the
60s era was all about. Now maybe in time, the public will
catch on, so I don't have to keep suing someone for
slander who can't believe I played on stuff (playing
"messiah games") for my credits.
Carol Kaye
http://www.carolkaye.com/
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Vocal Jazz and Siesta
Received: 01/25/00 3:38 am
From: Keith D'Arcy
To: Spectropop!
A quick response (I'm at work...)
Siesta's comps often feature "studio" groups that don't
really exist per se. Mike Alway, who in the 80's ran the
absolutely fabulous, utterly excessive and gorgeous El
Records label through Cherry Red is a big fan of soft pop
as is his arranger/collaborator Louis Philippe, and the
two of them put together these wildly named, fictional pop
groups. I love him for these sorts of ideas. El was
populated by the most exquisite non-groups. There is a
series of mock children's records on Siesta that's put out
two fairly well done comps of soft pop covers (Love
Generation, Margo Guryan, Eternity's Children). The first
two volumes are: "Algebra Spaghetti" and "Instantaneous
Ice Cream." Goofy, fun and totally disposable, like the
best pop music.
There's a brilliant vocal jazz/soft pop reissue out right
now by a Phillipino girl group (five sisters, aged 13 to
19) called the Third Wave. It's on Crippled Dick Hot Wax,
which usually reissues Italian and German cult film
soundtracks. Stunning covers of "Cantaloupe Island" and
"Eleanor Rigby" and some great Wendy & Bonnie-esque
originals.
Over,
KD
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: The Liquid Room 1/22/00
Received: 01/25/00 3:38 am
From: Ponak, David
The Liquid Room airs every Saturday Morning (Friday night)
from 3-6 on 90.7 FM KPFK. (98.7 in Santa Barbara County).
Also check out my show The Nice Age at
http://www.spikeradio.com.
The time has changed. I'm now on Sunday afternoons from
3-6 PM, PST.
The Liquid Room-1/22/99:
1.The Committee-California My Way
Happy Together-The Best Of White Whale Records (Varese Sarabande)
2.Ryuichi Sakamato-Aishiteiru Aishiteinai
Smoochy (Milan)
3.Spanky & Our Gang-Without Rhyme Or Reason
The Best Of (Mercury)
4.The Beastie Boys (with Miho Hatori)-20 Questions
The Sounds Of Science (Grand Royal/Capitol)
5.The Jungle Bros.-Freakin' You
V.I.P. (V2)
6.Luke Vibert & BJ Cole-Fly Hawaii
Stop The Panic (Astralwerks)
7.Nelson Riddle-Lolita Ya Ya
Lolita s/t (Rykodisc)
8.Kraftwerk-Radioactivity
The Mix (Elektra)
9.The United States Of America-I Won't Leave My Wooden Wife For You, Sugar
The United States Of America (Sony Special Products)
10.Mellow-Instant Love (Andy Votel Remix)
Single (East/West UK)
11.Lee Hazlewood-Ten Or 11 Towns Ago
13 (SLR) (GREAT LP! CD Reissue in stores 1/31)
12.Space Ponch-Tati Suite
The World Shopping With Space Ponch (Transonic/Flavour-Japan)
13.Colourbox-Baby I Love You So
Colourbox (4AD-UK)
14.The Third Wave-Cantaloupe Island
Here And Now (Crippled Dick-Germany)
15.Jim O'Rourke-The Workplace
Halfway To A Threeway (Drag City)
16.Watermelon-Moon Shaker (Silver Apples Remix)
Out Of Body Sessions (File-Japan)
17.Esquivel-Brazil
See It In Sound (BMG/7n)
18.Velma-55'291
Cyclique (Emperor Norton)
19.The Bee Gees-Every Christian Lion Hearted Man Will Tell You
Bee Gees 1st (Polydor)
20.The Thievery Corporation-Lebanese Blonde (French Version)
single (4AD-Germany)
21.Jack Jones-Blue Green Grey And Gone
Jack Jones Sings Michel Legrand (RCA)
22.Draco-V-A-C-A-N-T
Enter The Draco (Slabco)
23.Peter Yarrow & John Simon-The Wabe
You Are What You Eat Soundtrack (Sony Special Products)
24.Air-Bathroom Girl
The Virgin Suicides Soundtrack (Astralwerks)
25.Sagittarius-Song To The Magic Frog (Will YOu Ever Know)
Present Tense (Sundazed)
26.U-ziq-The Fear
Royal Astronomy (Astralwerks)
27.Prof. Takeo Yamashita-Theme From Giant Robot
Mission 1 (Nippon Crown)
28.Arling & Cameron-W.E.E.K.E.N.D.
Music For Imaginary Films (Emperor Norton)
29.Takako Minekawa-Tiger
Fun9 (Emperor Norton)
30.Piero Umiliani-Mah Na Mah Na (Karmexperience Mix)
Mah Na Mah Na-The Complete Remix Project (Right Tempo)
31.Group Of Gods-Moon Hotel
Group Of Gods (File-Japan)
32.The Mike Theordore Orchestra-High On Mad Mountain
High On Mad Mountain (Westbound)
33.Buffalo Daughter-Autoban
Musique Non Stop-A Tribute To Kraftwerk (EMI-Japan)
34.Depeche Mode-The Sun And The Rainfall
A Broken Frame (Sire)
35.Paul Williams-Morning I'll Be Moving On
Someday Man (Reprise)
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