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Spectropop - Digest Number 274

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There are 21 messages in this issue of Spectropop.

Topics in this Digest Number 274:

      1. A fine fine group
           From: Phil Chapman 
      2. J-Pop/The Cake
           From: Stewart Mason 
      3. Re: The Cake- saw 'em on Smothers Brothers!
           From: Charles Ellis 
      4. Re: Yes Sir, That's My Baby
           From: "Peter Lerner" 
      5. Re: Yes Sir, That's My Baby
           From: "Brad Elliott" 
      6. Sunshine Company on Revola
           From: "Kingsley Abbott" 
      7. Re: Overlanders
           From: "Peter Lerner" 
      8. Re: Overlanders
           From: Richard Havers 
      9. Re: Various
           From: Carol Kaye 
     10. Re: Snuff 'n' Richard
           From: "Spector Collector" 
     11. Marshall Session
           From: "Randy M. Kosht" 
           From: "Don Charles" 
     13. Re: Soft Pop/ Psych/ Association Heebie Jeebies
           From: Jason 
     14. Re: Soft pop '66
           From: Jason 
     15. The Goodies
           From: Mark Tilley 
     16. Re: Overlanders
           From: Michael Marino 
     17. Re: Overlanders
           From: "Robert Conway" 
     18. Re: Bravo program
           From: Mike W 
     19. Re: Achievement (trivia)
           From: "Peter Lerner" 
           From: "radiopro" 
     21. qualifying the Diamonds
           From: Frank Youngwerth 


Message: 1
   Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:09:31 -0000
   From: Phil Chapman 
Subject: A fine fine group

Congratulations to our hard-working moderators-
membership has now officially reached 500! Keep it up.

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:48:30 -0600
   From: Stewart Mason 
Subject: J-Pop/The Cake

Bill Reed writes:

>I highly recommend these and stylistically-related Nihon
>artists to anyone who has a lingering/ongoing affection
>for that big, fat, layered, vertically and horizontally
>complex Euro pop "sound" that so heavily draws upon the
>well of Spectropop. Especially Tats and prolific
>Spectorian producer/performer Ohtaki.

I concur, though I'd add that a lot of these performers,
particularly Dreams Come True, use a lot of synths and
electronic percussion and have an occasionally disco-ish
sound that may not be to all tastes here. (Pizzicato 5,
who are possibly better known in the US than they are in
their native Japan, is an easily available introduction
to this style -- I recommend their Matador releases MADE

Staying in Asia, I'd avoid most of the Canto-pop
performers from Hong Kong (they make Britney Spears sound
like Tina Turner), but I've always really liked Faye Wong.
Besides being drop-dead gorgeous (see her in Wong
Kar-Wai's CHUNGKING EXPRESS, her first acting role),
she's one of the more interesting Asian pop singers,
melding east and west better than most.  Her most famous
song is probably her Cantonese version of the Cranberries'
"Dreams," which just shreds the original (partially
because her voice doesn't have the annoying affectations
of Dolores O'Riordan, the Cranberries' singer), but she's
done some other interesting work.  She sounds kind of
like ABBA working with Kate Bush.

>I've got the second LP by The Cake and it pretty much
> sucks !

Must be a different version of the Cake's second album
than the one I heard, because I think A SLICE OF THE
CAKE is worlds better than the first album, which is so
fragmented and disjointed it sounds like three groups on
one record.  The second album melds the girl-group and
lite-psych strains much better, which does have the
unfortunate effect of making the pair of R&B songs stick
out, and not in a good way.  But the rest of the album
is terrific.  "Extroverted Introvert" is one of the most
completely over the top songs I've ever heard.  ("Let's
see, steel drum band or full orchestra? Ahh, just put
'em both on!")


--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:37:14 -0000
   From: Charles Ellis 
Subject: Re: The Cake- saw 'em on Smothers Brothers!

Well, a few years ago, the E! channel showed all of the
classic Smothers Brothers shows, and I actually managed
to see the Cake's appearance!  they looked absolutely
deadpan, looking straight in the camera as they sang a
big Spectorlike number (No, it wasn't "Baby That's Me"-
this other song was a slow-placed metallic number with
Wall of Sound effects)  By the way, this was the FIRST
time I had even heard the group, and would love to find
MP3s or CDs from this amazing femme group.  BTW, does
anyone know where in the NYC area I can get my hands on
some of those Brill Building demo CDs by
King/Greenwich/Mann et al?  

Charles Ellis

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:31:43 +0100
   From: "Peter Lerner" 
Subject: Re: Yes Sir, That's My Baby

My Hale and the Hushabyes 45 (Reprise 0299) says
"arranged and produced by Jack Nitzsche".


"Andrew Hickey" wrote:

> According to MOJO Collections the track (under the name
> The Date With Soul) was 'put together by' Nitzsche, and
> Spector's singing backups, along with the Blossoms,
> Sonny And Cher, BW and 'some guy sitting in the lobby'
> with Edna Wright singing. Doesn't say if it was Spector
> or Nitszche who produced it, but both were present, so...

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:40:41 -0500
   From: "Brad Elliott" 
Subject: Re: Yes Sir, That's My Baby

Andrew Hickey  wrote:

> According to MOJO Collections the track (under the name
> The Date With Soul) was 'put together by' Nitzsche, and
> Spector's singing backups, along with the Blossoms,
> Sonny And Cher, BW and 'some guy sitting in the lobby'
> with Edna Wright singing. Doesn't say if it was Spector
> or Nitzsche who produced it, but both were present

Not according to Jack himself!

In the Winter '76/77 issue of BOMP! magazine, Ken Barnes
did a lengthy interview with Jack Nitzsche, discussing
most of the great arranger's work to that point.  Here's
what Nitzsche said about "Yes, Sir, That's My Baby":

"This [the Date With Soul 45 on York] is the third one. 
There's one on Reprise as Hale & The Hushabyes and one
before that on another label [Apogee].  That's an
all-star group, that one -- that's Brian Wilson singing
falsetto, with Sonny & Cher and the Blossoms and Albert
Stone.  The guy singing bass is someone who was in the
lobby.  Honest to God, a black guy was in the lobby and I
went out there and said, "Do you sing bass?"  He said
yeah, and I said, "Come in and sing it."  That's Edna
Wright singing lead, singer of the Honey Cone.  Darlene
Love's singing background.  Jackie DeShannon's on there. 
It was good.

"That was also the session where I met the Rolling Stones.
Andrew Oldham called me and asked if they could come. 
All these people were in the studio recording and the
Stones walked in.  Wow ... but nobody cared.

"First Terry Melcher did this ["Yes, Sir"] with a guy
named Little E.  So we did this at Columbia but it never
came out.  I thought it was a good idea... Charlie
[Greene] and Brian [Stone] didn't have any money, so we
went to RCA and just recorded it, because we were so sure
of it -- and nobody got paid. Sold it to Reprise.  I got
the people.  Charlie and Brian just sat there and smiled."

Surely is Spector had been at the session, Nitzsche would
have mentioned him.  But he didn't, so ...


--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 6
   Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:02:47 +0100
   From: "Kingsley Abbott" 
Subject: Sunshine Company on Revola

I compiled and annotated the Revola SC CD, and can
confirm that there were no unreleased tracks on that
one - just my own choice from the three albums.  We did
investigate if there were any outakes available, but at
that stage at least the cupboard was bare.  I've
recently heard from Maury Manseau that he liked the
notes and selection.  I smiled! BTW if you do manage to
somehow acquire a Revola CD, please don't judge me on
the punctuation therein - it seems that revola had a
strange apostophe black hole sweeping around North
London when that was done!

Kingsley Abbott

PS Surely the great "Club Seventeen" was the B-side of
"New York's a Lonely Town". wasn't it??  Wasn't "The
Party Starts At Nine" out with "Summertime girl"?  Or
did US/UK issues vary??/

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 7
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:35:05 +0100
   From: "Peter Lerner" 
Subject: Re: Overlanders

The Overlanders were a fairly soft folky UK group, who
recorded on Pye, and surprisingly had a number 1 hit over
here with their cover of the Beatles' "Michelle". I never
liked them much but to each his own - I'd rate them as
ploddingly listenable in a damp sort of way.


"Robert Conway" wrote:

> Here's my question of the day: Anybody recall a UK group
> (circa 1963-65) called the Overlanders (UK Pye/U.S.
> Hickory) that had a couple of minor U.S. hits including
> "Don't It Make You Feel Good?"  
> ...their entire output is now out on a new UK
> import for a budget price (under $15).  Again as with
> most of the first wave of the British Invasion, song
> quality is a bit uneven, but nevertheless definitely
> entertaining.

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 8
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:40:45 +0100
   From: Richard Havers 
Subject: Re: Overlanders


Some Overlanders stuff......

Best Wishes


The Overlanders

Hits: 1
Weeks on Chart: 10

Genuine one hit wonders, one number one single and no
other chart entry for the five piece who started life
as a vocal & guitar trio. They were former income tax
collector and typewriter salesman Laurie Mason
(b.1.11.40 Middlesborough) Thames bus hand, Peter
Bartholomew (b.20.5.41 Andover, Hampshire) and Paul
Arnold, real name Paul Arnold Friswell, trainee grocer
(b.18.8.42 Coventry). Their debut single released in
the late summer of '63 Summer Skies and Golden Sands,
failed to make the chart, as did the follow up Movin'
and indeed the next seven releases in Britain; Pye
certainly had faith! It was probably helped by the fact
that their third single, Yesterday's Gone, an old Chad
and Jeremy number, managed to make No.75 in the US
charts in '64.

In '65 two new additions were added to the line-up,
bass player and former lab technician Terry Widlake,
real name Harry Terance Widlake (b.21.4.42 Birmingham)
and ex-clerk Dave Walsh (b.10.8.47 Birmingham) on drums.
Their long overdue break came when producer Tony Hatch,
who also played piano on the record, suggested they
cover the Beatles' Michelle, they did and it went to
No.1 for 3 weeks in January '66.

An EP and album followed, and they reverted to their
tradition of non-hit singles, including a cover of the
Mamas and Papa's hit Go Where You Wanna Go. In October
'66 Arnold left, to be replaced by lan Griffiths. By
'67 Paul Petts had joined on bass and Paul Brett on
lead guitar, the outfit finally spilt in September '67
when Petts and Brett joined the Warren Davis Monday

By the following year Brett was playing alongside
Richard Hudson and John Ford (later to have hits as
members of The Strawbs and as Hudson Ford) in Elmer
Gantry's Velvet Opera. He later formed a band under his
own name that made 10 or so albums between '70 & '80,
using the name Paul Brett's Sage in the early days.

Pye 7N 15544  Summer Skies And Golden Sands/Call Of The Wild  1963 
Pye 7N 15568  Movin'/Rainbow  1963 
Pye 7N 15619  Yesterday's Gone/Gone In The Rainbow  1964
Pye 7N 15678  Sing A Song Of Sadness/Don't It Make You Feel Good 1964 
Pye 7N 15712  If I Gave You/I Wonder Why  1964 
Pye 7N 15719  The Leaves Are Falling/Delia's Gone   1964 
Pye 7N 15804  Along Came Jones/Walking The Soles Off My Shoes 1965 
Pye 7N 15883  Freight Train/Take The Bucket To The Well  1965 
Pye 7N 15967  Room Enough For You And Me/January  1965 
Pye 7N 17034  Michelle/Cradle Of Love    1966  1
Pye 7N 17068  My Life/The Girl From Indiana  1966 
Pye 7N 17159  Go Where You Wanna Go/Don't Let It Happen Again 1966


--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 9
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:26:27 -0700
   From: Carol Kaye 
Subject: Re: Various

> Gary Lewis and The Playboys (Carol...were you a
> Playboy)

Haha, I played on quite a few of the Gary Lewis and
Playboys hits yes, and Bobby Vee, and other "Bobbys"
too, Vail, Darin, etc. see my Biography page on my
website for some credits.

I'm not surprised that Snuffy produced Roy Rogers --
Snuf always wore his cowboy hat around Hollywood, was
a very straight guy, good person to work for, he was
very revered by the studio musicians.

BTW, we were all influenced by Roy Rogers and the fine
Sons Of The Pioneers (some of whom were jazz musicians)
with the good musical backgrounds, but it wasn't until
I worked later for Walter Scharf that I realized the
connection....Walter was writing the music for those
cowboy films of Roy Rogers' and Walter began with Al
Jolson....what a guy Walter was.

One raise of the eyebrow and you knew he was listening
to you, and you carefully played his music but being
an Easterner, he was a LOT of fun to work for, a very
gregarious, gracious man  - those National Geographic
things we all did for him were great music.   So you
might say that one of Snuffy Garrett's musical
influences was of Walter Scharf's musical backgrounds
of those Roy Rogers films....

Carol Kaye

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 10
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:21:44 +0000
   From: "Spector Collector" 
Subject: Re: Snuff 'n' Richard

I understand all the points Warren Cosford made in his
last post regarding Snuff Garrett, but as a point of
order, it must be noted that twice in that message he
confuses another of Phil Spector's "rival" producers,
Richard Perry, with Garrett (in his references to work
with Ringo and The Pointer Sisters).

David A. Young

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 11
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:56:36 -0700
   From: "Randy M. Kosht" 
Subject: Marshall Session

Hi, Carol:

Your mention of Marshall Lieb and Gold Star...

> Marshall [Lieb] and Bob [Criswell], good young men, very
> nice, worked for them mainly at Gold Star from what I
> recall.  Think I was just recording on guitar then - I
> remember their tracks as some pretty good music.

...inspires a question.  There was a Chris Montez B-side
produced by Marshall Lieb, "Go Head On."  Chris wrote it
and it was the flip to "Call Me."  Were you playing
guitar on it?


--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 12
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:40:51 +0000
   From: "Don Charles" 

I conducted that "rather marvelous" interview with Mark
Barkan that you speak of.  He was indeed filled with
praise about Ellie Greenwich, as anyone would be after
hearing her marvelous singing voice.  Bob Crewe was even
more adulatory about her talents when I interviewed him.

Don Charles

Mick Patrick wrote: 

>On first hearing I find the standout tracks to be Ellie's
>original demos of "House Of Gold", "He's Got Something",
>"I'll Try Anything", "Time To Go" and "She's A Liar" all
>of which were written or co-written by Mark Barkan. I
>seem to recall a rather marvellous interview with that
>great songwriter some years ago in which he said that
>Ellie Greenwich was his favourite demo singer. Buy this
>CD and you'll understand why.

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 13
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:01:29 EDT
   From: Jason 
Subject: Re: Soft Pop/ Psych/ Association Heebie Jeebies

In a message dated 10/22/2001 JOSEPH SCOTT writes:

> Re the Association, their "Pandora's Golden Heebie

I'm with you there, Joseph.  Phenomenal song.  Very
progressive.  No one would believe it was the
Association if you asked them.  Which leads me to the
conclusion maybe Mr. Boettcher was involved with this
one.  After all, it was the first single released after
the album he produced for them, a couple months before
their second lp that was produced by Jim Yester's
brother.  Curt produced the "b"-side "Standing Still". 
Also, there's the re-appearance of the koto, which as
far as I know was only featured "Pandora's" and Curt and
Tandyn Almer's "Message of Our Love" from the first lp.
Anyone care to speculate with me?


--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 14
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:18:36 EDT
   From: Jason 
Subject: Re: Soft pop '66

In a message dated 10/22/2001 spectropop writes:

> Some more '66 stuff that is in the general ballpark of
> "soft psych" is 
> "Remember," Association
> "I'm Only Sleeping," Beatles
> "Love Seems Doomed," Blues Magoos
> "Steve's Song," Blues Project
> "Section 43," Country Joe and the Fish
> "Dance Of The Freak-Gropers," Fugs
> "Electric Tomorrow," Electric Tomorrow
> "Runnin' 'Round This World," Jefferson Airplane
> "Orange Skies," Love
> "Flowers In My Mind," Rockin' Ramrods
> "Turn To Earth," Al Stewart

Can I add some to your list?
"I Just Wasn't Made for These Times" -- Beach Boys
"I Won't Hurt You" (first version) -- WCPAEB
"Panama Red" -- Yellow Balloon
"Message of Our Love" -- Association
"Time is After You" (first version) -- Peanut Butter Conspiracy
"That's the Way it's Gonna Be" -- Lee Mallory
"Softly to Me" -- Love
"I'm Only Sleeping" -- Beatles
"Look Through My Window" -- Mamas & Papas (1966 single)
"Out of My Mind" -- Buffalo Springfield
"the Music Scene" -- Fapardokly

That's all I can think of for now!


--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 15
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:59:48 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Mark Tilley 
Subject: The Goodies

Does anybody have any info on the group The Goodies?
In particular the song Dum Dum Ditty. I'm curious to
know who the lead singer was and who played drums. I'm
betting on Hal Blaine. It sounds like his style.

Carol, maybe you can enlighten me.

--- Carol Kaye wrote:

>  Spector was never hard to work for, wasn't a
> "taskmaster" except....that sometimes he wouldn't
> observe Union-mandated breaks and tho' we were all
> game for working long hours - no problem, it got a bit
> much to do go without bathroom breaks sometimes.  He
> respected us tho', was good to work for and sometimes
> fun too...altho' a few musicians and singers later
> said some other things.  It got boring tho' doing 1
> song for 3 hours.

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 16
   Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 05:15:49 -0000
   From: Michael Marino 
Subject: Re: Overlanders

--- In spectropop, "Robert Conway" wrote:

> Here's my question of the day: Anybody recall a UK group
> (circa 1963-65) called the Overlanders (UK Pye/U.S.
> Hickory) that had a couple of minor U.S. hits including
> "Don't It Make You Feel Good?"  That single came out
> about the same time as the Kinks' "You Really Got Me." 
> Definitely a FOLK-pop group that had that unique UK
> harmony sound similar to the Springfields. 
> Anyhow...their entire output is now out on a new UK
> import for a budget price (under $15).  Again as with
> most of the first wave of the British Invasion, song
> quality is a bit uneven, but nevertheless definitely
> entertaining.
> Bob Conway

Wow!  Totally forgot about this group.  As I recall,
they did a pretty good version of "Michelle" which
was a big hit in England.  Thanks for the heads up.

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 17
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 23:02:11 -0500
   From: "Robert Conway" 
Subject: Re: Overlanders

Thanks Richard for the extensive information.  Sometimes
the Billboard charts didn't tell the entire story,
especially in the sixties when the East Coast and the
West Coast seemed to be a bit combative when it came to
each other's musical tastes.  With that in mind, the
Midwest (Chicagoland) sometimes was ignored or
overlooked yet we seemed to be able to digest the music
of both coasts and turn out some great pop (Cryan'
Shames, Buckinghams) at the same time.  "Don't It Make
You Feel Good" made the Top 20 in Chicago around the
same time as the Kinks' "You Really Got Me."  For
whatever reason I fell in love with the song, but then I
also liked "Tossin' and Turning" (plus a few others) by
the Ivy League and quite a bit by the Rockin' Berries. 
I even remember Twinkle!  Thanks again.

Bob Conway

Richard Havers wrote:
>Some Overlanders stuff......
>Best Wishes

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 18
   Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 06:04:11 -0000
   From: Mike W 
Subject: Re: Bravo program

Another program to look for on US, PBS stations, is the
"History of Rock and Roll"'s at least 8 to 10,
one-hour programs that really gets to the essence, like
no other TV distillation-presentation of the history and
popular music trends of rock, that I have seen. 

I was fortunate to catch a complete viewing of all of
programs, in marathon presentation, one holiday...and
it's astounding ! I believe it also was released on VHS
too! Catch it if you can !

--- In Spectropop, Will George wrote:

> I just finished watching a very interesting hour-long
> program on the Bravo channel. It is called Popular Song:
> Soundtrack of the Century. It was all about the Brill
> Building writers, and included scenes of Phil Spector
> with Darlene Love in the studio, clips of The Crystals,
> Gene Pitney, Neil Sedaka, Righteous Bros, and interviews
> with Pitney, Mann & Weill, Ellie Grenwich, Sedaka, and
> others. I'm sure it wil be repeated, so watch your
> listings.
> Will

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 19
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:27:31 +0100
   From: "Peter Lerner" 
Subject: Re: Achievement (trivia)

OK here goes.

Hank Williams???


> Who is the only person to be inducted into the Rock and
> Roll Hall of Fame, the Country Music Hall of Fame and
> the Songwriters Hall of Fame?
> Michael Marino

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 20
   Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 18:58:44 -0400
   From: "radiopro" 

Three performers - Johnny Cash, Jimmie Rodgers and Hank Williams, 
Sr. - are in the Rock 'N' Roll, Country and Songwriters Hall of Fame.

A check of the respective web sites for these Halls confirms this.

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 21
   Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 01:21:55 EDT
   From: Frank Youngwerth 
Subject: qualifying the Diamonds

> What galled me the most is that he always talked about
> "Our big hit single thus and such" before he sang each
> song, never once mentioning that all of the Diamonds'
> biggest hit singles (barring "The Stroll," itself a bald
> rip-off of Chuck Willis' version of "See See Rider") were
> poached from black artists.

There's an interesting exception, though. The Diamonds
landed their version of Buddy Holly's "Words of Love"
fairly high on Billboard's "Most Played by Jockeys" chart
two months before (Buddy and) the Crickets' own chart
debut (with "That'll Be the Day," whose title was
"poached" from a famous movie line). The Beatles' cover
is far better known, but the Diamonds appear to be the
only act to have a hit with "Words...," and the first to
get any Holly song (mis-spelled 'Buddy Holley' on the
Mercury label) onto pop radio.

Frank Youngwerth

ps: Mick Patrick, it was your compilations that got me
majorly into lesser-known girl groups fifteen years ago.

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

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