The Spectropop Group Archives presented by Friends of Spectropop

[Prev by Date] [Next by Date] [Index] [Search]

Spectropop - Digest Number 260

______________                                            ______________
______________                                            ______________
______________        S  P  E  C  T  R  O  P  O  P        ______________
______________                                            ______________

There are 10 messages in this issue of Spectropop.

Topics in this Digest Number 260:

      1. Re: Club Medley
           From: Frank 
      2. Re: Listen To "See That Girl"
           From: "Don Charles" 
           From: Mick Patrick 
      4. New
           From: "Country Paul" 
      5. Stoned
           From: "Phil Chapman" 
      6. Re: Mojo Collections
           From: Andrew Hickey 
           From: "Peter Lerner" 
      8. Do the Crawl
           From: LePageWeb 
      9. Re: Oldham sold 'em
           From: "Joseph Scott" 
     10. Medley vs Spector
           From: Rex Patton 


Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 08 Oct 01 14:07:14 +0200
   From: Frank 
Subject: Re: Club Medley

Well after all these posts about the "unending unchained
saga", this is without doubt the best of them all. It
asks the right questions and raises the right problems.
Thanks a lot and congratulations Jamie. The only point
where I could try to suggest an answer is this one:

>5. If Medley produced the Phil Spector Productions
>master, why is the Medley-produced Curb soundalike of
>such lesser quality?

Curb was not known for his generosity as far as record
production is concerned and the difference in sound and
result could partly be attributed to the fact that these
Curb sessions were just rapidly made productions meant
to take advantage of the renewal of interest in the
Righteous recordings.


Jamie wrote:

>1. Why did Spector suddenly give Medley a budget to use
>the "good" musicians and a real string section?
>2. Spector put junk on B sides - Why didn't he use a
>typical Mike Patterson filler track on the B?
>3. Spector liked to keep the B-side publishing - Why did
>he use a cover on the B side this time?
>4. If it's a Medley production, why has the credit never
>been corrected (typically incorrect credits are
>corrected on subsequent pressings/releases)?
>5. If Medley produced the Phil Spector Productions
>master, why is the Medley-produced Curb soundalike of
>such lesser quality?
>6. Spector undoubtedly booked the studio and musicians,
>approved the budget, paid the studio and local #47,
>supervised the selection, mastering, pressing and
>release on his own label. That's usually called record
>production. And of course, the master is indisputably a
>Phil Spector Productions master. What did Medley do
>7. Finally, from this point forward Bill and Bobby were
>at each other's throats, right? As you wrote in the
>Philately #4 - Xmas '84 article, Spector produced all
>the Hatfield sides and Medley did his own. If this
>indeed was a Medley production - why Hatfield on lead? 

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 17:02:29 +0000
   From: "Don Charles" 
Subject: Re: Listen To "See That Girl"

To my ears, "See That Girl" has always sounded like a
Phil Spector production, though it's been credited to
Bill Medley for many years.

Don Charles

Monophonius wrote:

> If Phil had really done "See That Girl" [it] would
> have been done with a stronger downbeat, not laid back.
> It might have sounded like "Walking in the Rain"
> without the thunder, if you could imagine that.

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:20:51 +0100 (BST)
   From: Mick Patrick 


Phil Chapman wrote:

> ...I still
> support the contentious theory that the release of the
> truly magnificent "Paradise" was withheld because of a
> dispute with Harry Nilsson over writing credits/split. I
> once took the opportunity to ask HN at a recording
> session, but he wouldn't be drawn - which wasn't a
> denial!

I'll be careful exactly what I say here. I know that Phil
Spector does not take kindly to any accusations that he
stole songwriter credits. However, there is a question
that need answering. I'll just stick with a few facts:

1. The Ronettes recorded "Paradise" in 1965 but it was
never released.

2. The Shangri-Las released a version of "Paradise" in
1966: the songwriter credited was Harry Nilsson.

3. Gogi Grant released a version of the song in c.1969:
Harry Nilsson got the composer credit.

4. The Ronettes' version was eventually released in 1976;
the songwriters credited were Harry Nilsson and Phil

5. In 1977 Bette Midler released a version of "Paradise":
Harry Nilsson, Perry Botkin & Gil Garfield were the
songwriters listed on the label.

6. The Ronettes' version is included on Phil Spector's
"Back To Mono" Box Set in 1991: the songwriters credited
were Harry Nilsson, Gil Garfield, Perry Botkin & Phil

7. A search of the BMI database reveals 826(!) songs
titled "Paradise" including one credited to Harry Nilsson,
Gil Garfield & Perry Botkin (ASCAP lists 200+ other songs
of the same title!).

I have more to say on this subject but for the moment
will be content to pose the question 'who wrote "Paradise"?'.


--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 11:16:46 -0400
   From: "Country Paul" 
Subject: New


New to this group; played a lot of this material ont he
radio when it was new - hope to have some fun here.

Looking for clean copies of Cheer Leaders, "That's The
Way With Love" on Encore (I think)(gorgeous girl group
ballad) and Bobby James [actually Jim West of the
Innocents], "5000 Tears Ago" on Indigo. Also, I heard
(and crave to have) a beautiful song by Priscilla Paris
on Spectropop Radio - forget the name, but it was
midtempo 4/4 (instead of the usual Paris sisters slow
6/8) and had the Spector sound although it was on York
4004 (ah, the trivia one accumulates - why couldn't I
remember the name?!?). Does anyone know if they are on
CD? I've got the 45's of the first two but they have
met one too many worn styli over the years.

I'm signing on with a daily digest, so response may not
be instant.

Thanks, Country Paul

P.S. Considering what a shrine this site is to them, I
wonder if Phil Spector, Brian Wilson or any of the
other music makers discussed here subscribe
to/read/know about Spectropop. (What a trip it would be
to get first-person reportage, especially while these
folks are still alive and well.)

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 17:02:49 +0100
   From: "Phil Chapman" 
Subject: Stoned

> "My world is empty without..."
> "I see a red door and I..."

> LOL!!! Good one, Phil!

I kid you not, Jamie! I got this straight from the
horses' mouth, so to speak, when I was making,
assistant engineer, on a Stones session. It was also
revealed that the guitar riff on "Satisfaction" was
'influenced' by the opening brass figure of "Nowhere To
Run" . However,
all parties at the time were under the influence of much
more than just girlgroup classics:-)

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 11:46:12 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Andrew Hickey 
Subject: Re: Mojo Collections

> Mick,
> Any idea how I could get my hands on a copy ? I'm in
> Paris, France.

In the magazine it gives details of where to contact
for subscriptions and back issues - I assume you
should try there:

UK Subscription hotline 01858 438 806
Outside the UK (+44)1858 438 806

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 7
   Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 21:18:12 +0100
   From: "Peter Lerner" 

"Mick Patrick" wrote:

> I'm hoping someone out there in Spectropopland can help
> me on an urgent search for DREAMERS material. 
> The Dreamers, sometimes billed as Richard Berry & the
> Dreamers, released singles on the Flair, RPM and Flip
> labels. Fanita & her girls also recorded for Class as
> the Rollettes. 

Are these the same Dreamers who did a nice version of
Jackie DeShannon and Sharon Sheeley's much covered
"Daydreamin' of you", coupled with "The Promise", on
Fairmount 612?


--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 8
   Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:43:28 +0900
   From: LePageWeb 
Subject: Do the Crawl

Andrew Hickey asks:

>  Bob Stanley says Bill Medley sings 'I would crawl for
> you girl/I would crawl, every day' in Just Once in My
> Life. I've always heard this as 'I'd work hard for you
> girl'. Which of us is deaf?

This MUST be a put on.

"I can't give you the world, But I I'll work hard for you, girl.
I'll work hard, ev'ryday, all my life. "


--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 9
   Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:37:24 -0600
   From: "Joseph Scott" 
Subject: Re: Oldham sold 'em

Hi all,

My understanding is that Oldham's talents as a producer
were quite limited, which is not to say that they were
nonexistent. He was officially "in charge" of
"production" simply because as the Stones' (brilliant)
manager he got them to agree (for a while there) that he
would be their "producer" as well. The impression I've
got over the years is that in retrospect, people
involved, such as members of the Stones, don't think he
was really all that qualified to so-called produce and
it showed, and imo this matches up with the fact that
before around "Satisfaction," before around the time the
Stones started working with people such as Hassinger,
their records don't sound well produced imo, and don't
have a consistent sound. In contrast, Jimmy Miller
brought a particular creative producer's vision to the
Stones' sound (a vision that you can hear clearly on
Miller's Traffic stuff, before Miller even worked with
the Stones!). I'd say that as he sits in one of his
mansions, Jagger has a lot to thank Oldham for as a
_P.R._ genius, a lot to thank Hassinger for as an
engineer full of creative ideas who could de facto
produce as much as you needed, right when the Stones
were trying to break through in the very competitive
_U.S._ pop charts in the mid-'60s (for which a quality
L.A.-like sound was quite important), a lot to thank
Miller for for getting the Stones' recordings back on
track (right when they really could have lost the
public's interest), resulting in their achieving
acceptance as an institution, and a lot to thank
Richards for for his composing talent.

Anyhow, the point I was trying to make in the previous
post is just that an Oldham "production" credit of the
"Paint It Black" era reflects the standing arrangement
he had with the Stones and doesn't necessarily at all
preclude production-type involvement by a friendly
talented guest such as Sloan. Just in general, it's
always a good idea to approach official production
credits with some healthy skepticism -- e.g. even George
Martin, widely regarded as one of the most honest and
straightforward guys in the business, has very
occasionally wound up with his name appearing as
producer of tracks he wasn't even in the studio for, and
as you get into all the less scrupulous industry people
it just goes downhill from there.

I'm not sure I understood the point about Oldham's book
-- Oldham claims that marketing is what matters, not the
music, is that right? I think that's pretty valid in the
specific case of his achieving #1 _U.K._ pop hits for
the Stones, _pre_-"Satisfaction," despite the fact that
their early work was awfully undistinguishable in
quality and style from many other U.K. R&B/rock bands of
the era and not very "pop" in style at that time. Oldham
deserves the credit for that very remarkable early
marketing success, without which the Stones train
wouldn't have got moving, without which Jagger would be
about as well known today as Phil May or Sean Bonniwell.
Generally speaking though, I think it's obviously a
mixture of marketing and musical quality that sells
records -- e.g. "Jumping Jack Flash" and "Miss You" are
great records _and_ were thoroughly hyped.

Joseph Scott

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 10
   Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:25:59 -0400
   From: Rex Patton 
Subject: Medley vs Spector

To Jamie who wondered if anyone had seen Bill Medley
address this situation in an interview. For what it's
worth, I interviewed him in 1983 and Bill told me that
he did indeed produce "Unchained Melody" and that he
never wanted to produce the Philles albums but he did
it by default. Spector told him that he would put
everything into the singles but that he wouldn't have
time to do the albums and that Medley could do them.
Bill told me he considered Spector to be the greatest
producer of all time and that he never felt
competitive with him. He said he was just getting the
job done because somebody had to do it and since he
produced all the Moonglow albums, it might as well
have been him. In regards to Mike Patterson, his band
is backing the Righteous Brothers on their live album
and they're excellent - they actually rock.

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------


Click here to go to The Spectropop Group

Spectropop text contents copyright Spectropop unless stated otherwise. All rights in and to the contents of these documents, including each element embodied therein, is subject to copyright protection under international copyright law. Any use, reuse, reproduction and/or adaptation without written permission of the owners is a violation of copyright law and is strictly prohibited. All rights reserved.