________________________________________________________________________ ______________ ______________ ______________ ______________ ______________ S P E C T R O P O P ______________ ______________ ______________ ________________________________________________________________________ Perfectly safe for playing normal 45 rpm microgroove records ------------------------------------------------------------------------ There are 11 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Back to vinyl From: "Phil Chapman" 2. Spector boxed From: Lindsay Martin 3. re: the "other" Phil Spector box From: "Spector Collector" 4. Re: Secrets From: "Brad Elliott" 5. barbara mcnair From: "Jennifer" 6. Re. Richard & Connie From: "Martin Roberts" 7. Re: Smile From: Tobias Bernsand 8. Smile From: David Marshall 9. smile 2nd post From: David Marshall 10. Re: Smile From: Freya 11. Sunshine Lolipops and Rainbows From: Freya ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 1 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 18:38:02 +0100 From: "Phil Chapman" Subject: Back to vinyl Tony Leong asked: > ....is it my imagination, or was "Fine Fine Boy" > crudely edited during the first chorus?? Curiosity aroused, I compared some versions of "A Fine Fine Boy" to discover that the orginal 45 is actually different from the CD box-set, which appears to be the 70s PSI version with a harsher EQ and a noise reduction filter. Apart from the tail-end of the count-in being audible under the intro of the CD version, the first chorus has been substituted by the second chorus edited in its place, possibly because it has a slightly stronger percussion balance. The giveaway is the tracking on Darlene's vocal, which is spot-on on the 45 going into the first chorus. Another slight but significant difference is that the 'spoken' sections reveal that the 45 has (Gold Star) echo on the lead vocal and not on the backing vocals, whereas the CD has no echo on the lead vocal, and 'other' echo on the backing vocals, tending to make the track sound weaker. I've posted the original 45, for comparison purposes only. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spectropop/files/musica The box set in general is a great way to introduce a newcomer to Phil's genius, but for die-hard fans like myself the cleaned-up, noise-reduced quality doesn't conjure up the original emotion of the 45s, bursting at the seams, hurtling out of a single loudspeaker. But that *was* over 35 years ago, and nothing at the time sounded anything like it. It's interesting that the CD cuts are theoretically closer to the quality of the master tape. It would seem that the power of Phil's productions was actually enhanced by the process of being cut to vinyl. I would also have liked to have full dates & details of the recordings, as on the "Best of..." compilations - that really took me back to those times. The great thing about having these titles on CD is being able to hear the subtleties in the frequency extremes hitherto lost to rumble and hiss - and I can now play them unbearably loud without the record-deck feeding back! --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Message: 2 Date: 30 Mar 2001 14:00:20 -0800 From: Lindsay Martin Subject: Spector boxed Al Quaglieri wrote: >This may be a heretical thing to say here, but I was >quite disappointed by the Wall of Sound box. I wouldn't be without "Back To Mono", but for me these songs don't work as well put together on an album as they do as individual 45s, popping up on the radio as we originally heard them, or mixed in with other songs of the era on homemade CDs/tapes. It always seems to be too much of a good thing to hear numerous Spector tracks one after the other. I think this is because they were designed as 2-3 minute stand-alone, stand-out singles, as individual masterpieces rather than album tracks. That's what made Brian Wilson pull over when he heard "Be My Baby"! Lindsay --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:08:41 -0000 From: "Spector Collector" Subject: re: the "other" Phil Spector box In digest 137, Jamie talked about a late-'80s five-CD Phil Spector box set, most copies of which, he says, were destroyed shortly after its release. I didn't realize quite what a rarity I had on my hands, but since I do have it, I thought I'd share the following details: According to Jamie's information, the rights were secured in 1987 by Moon Records and the set was subsequently released two years later by MMG Records. The copyright date on the box is indeed 1989, but it shows Alfa Moon as the parent label. The picture of the cover art to which Jamie provided a link at http://www.spectropop.com/hspectorboot.html depicts a red front and a green back cover, and doesn't appear as thick as the released slipcase, which is gold with blue lettering. The red cover matches that of the enclosed CD-sized booklet of liner notes. My used copy didn't come with an obi strip, so I don't know if there ever was one or whether that's what the green panel was. Anyone? One disc each is devoted to The Ronettes, The Crystals, and Darlene Love; the others are called "Phil Spector's Greatest Hits" (annoyingly, nine of the 14 tracks on this one are repeated on the above three) and "Phil Spector Artists." This set is the only place to find (however fleetingly) legitimate CD releases of The Crystals' "On Broadway" and Darlene's "I Shook the World" and "Baby (I Love You)" (both originally released as by Bob B. Soxx and the Blue Jeans), "Playing for Keeps," "Johnny (Baby Please Come Home)," "I Love Him Like I Love My Very Life," and the original mix of "Lord If You're a Woman" complete with "hey hey hey" background chorus as opposed to the revisionist mix that came out on ABKCO. (These last two songs appear in stereo.) Other items of interest: although both groups recorded versions of "I Wonder," The Crystals' version is included on both their and The Ronettes' discs, and the mix of The Ronettes' "Paradise" is radically different than any other release of the tune, with the ocean and bird sound effects much more prominent. I agree that the sound is significantly better than on subsequent releases on ABKCO, and note with interest that Eiichi Ohtaki (an occasional subject of discussion here) is namechecked under "Great Thanks." David A. Young --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 05:53:31 -0600 From: "Brad Elliott" Subject: Re: Secrets Mike Arcidiacono wrote: >>> BTW, does anyone have any info on the Secrets who >>> had a release on Red Bird 10076? >> >> I've never heard the single, but it ought to be straight >> teenage rock 'n' roll. The group is one of the first >> entries on the resume of Max Weinberg, drummer for Bruce >> Springsteen and the Conan O'Brien Show. > > I think that is an error. As Red Bird closed in mid 1965, > Max would have been about 9 or 10 years old. It's also > possible its a different Max Weinberg, that's not an > unusual name by any means, especially here on the East > Coast. Mikey, Don't give up your day job for betting on music trivia questions. :-) Max was born in 1951, so he'd have been a young teenager (13 or 14) when the Red Bird single came out. He's said he started playing in bands in April 1964 and his first band, The Epsilons, played at the New Jersey Pavilion at the New York World's Fair in 1964. So, just from an experience and age standpoint, it's certainly possible that he could have played on the Red Bird single. And then there's this from an interview with Max that appeared in the "Thunder Road" fanzine back in the summer of 1979: Q: Let's talk about pre-Bruce records you've been on. A: "Everyday," the Buddy Holly song, by The Secrets on the Red Bird label. Totally obscure, didn't sell, but it was fun. Brad --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:15:42 -0000 From: "Jennifer" Subject: barbara mcnair i absolutely adore her song "you're gonna love my baby" but the two times i've bought a cd with this song its been a really cheesy 80s remake she did. does anybody know where i can get the original version? much appreciated!! jennifer ps: thanks to all for your posts about the spector set --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:11:45 +0100 From: "Martin Roberts" Subject: Re. Richard & Connie Hi Peter, Well! Is Richard Williams really the sports editor of The Guardian? A great writer. He has a new book "Long Distance Call Writings on Music" published by Aurum Press. U.S.$'s & GBP quoted so assume available in the States. Mainly re-published/re-written articles from Melody Maker, The Times, Mojo etc. As you would expect >from Richard a catholic choice of artists covered Gladys Knight, Bob Dylan, Nico etc. Of particular intrest to Spectropopers is a re-write of "Out Of His Head The Sound Of Phil Spector"'s first chapter "And So This Is Christmas" Hi Jack, You named most of Connie Stevens best tracks - a few you missed... "I Couldn't Say No" wr Goffin/King/Ripp B-Side of Mr Songwriter "Don't You Want To Love Me" also Goffin/King B-Side of "In My Room" "A Girl Never Knows" wr Sloan/Barri B-Side Of "They're Jealous Of Me" also arr & pr David Gates. Of interest (quite good) "Wouldn't It Be Nice" ( A real Beach Boy tease! This song wr Clifford)/"Cinderella Could Have Saved Us All" both sides pr Richard Delvy on MGM 13906 and "She'll Never Understand Him (Like I Do)" Jackie DeShannon song on Bell 866. All the above I have on 45's but bought "The Best Of Connie Stevens" Japanese WBros WPCB-3535 CD for "Little Miss-Understood" writer credits listed Botkin/Garfield but no pr or arr credits on the CD. Never been tempted by any of her 60's L.P.'s so may well be goodies I'm unaware of. Martin --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:23:51 +0200 From: Tobias Bernsand Subject: Re: Smile Kingsley Abbot wrote: > Regarding Smile I have my own feelings about what it > could/should have been. Recall that some of it, > "Cabinessence" sections for example, were finished > before Pet Sounds was even released This is not correct --- Pet Sounds was released in May 1966 and the first session for Cabin Essence wasn't held until the 3rd of October. > there was I feel a very great album potential within > reach but that Brian got sidetracked into the Elemental > themes I don't think The Elements was the big problem as much as not being able to complete a version of Heroes and Villians until after the album had been abandoned. In October '66, the song more than likely consisted of sections like I'm In Great Shape (aka Eggs & Grits), and Barnyard, which were perhaps moved into their own song (I'm In Great Shape) by December when he recorded several of those major key chorus chants [we don't know this for a fact, they being recorded in December, but there's some evidence to back it up, such as witness accounts by Paul WIlliams]. That version seems to have been junked by the 3rd of January 1967, when he's recording a complete new version with Bag of Tricks (aka Alt Whistles), Do A Lot, and Bicycle Rider (finished two days later). By February, he's doing the Cantina version, and by March, he apparently worked on a five-minute version.... I'm one of the few who believes that Smile doesn't really have anything to do with the music of Pet Sounds, so I don't think they can be compared in terms of being part of the same kind of projects. The lyrics are different, the arrangements are different, the production is different, the song structure is different, the sound is different, etc. Smile has more in common with All Summer Long than Pet Sounds. Toby --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:59:42 -0700 From: David Marshall Subject: Smile > Regarding Smile I have my own feelings about what it > could/should have been... What is commonly available > as Smile on the various (expensive) bootlegs is not, > IMO, any sort of great album... I'd be most interested > to hear other list members feelings about it. > > Kingsley Abbott I don't know about the "expensive" boots. There are so many versions easily downloaded from the web for free. Smile is such an interesting album for me. Easily Heroes and Villains with all its different versions, snippets etc.. is by far my personal favorite of BW work. I love the story element of Smile and really can see it almost as some huge theatrical performance. I suppose the theories of how close Smile came to conclusion are as numerous as the versions of the boot floating about. I think with Prayer, Cabinessence, Good Vibrations, Wind Chimes, Wonderful, Heroes and Villains, Vegetables, the essential components of Surf's Up, Love to Say Da Da and possibily Fire there, the album is pretty much available in enough form to know at least what the final product would have approached. Although, if nothing else, Good Vibrations teaches us that even these more finished versions could be nothing more than a link in the final chain. But for me even what we have in the unfinished version is the most incredible music I have ever heard. So I would probably disagree and say to me it is great. It is constant in my listening and the fact that it is unfinished may be the most interesting part. I can still play with it in my mind and wonder... dave marshall --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 08:02:56 -0700 From: David Marshall Subject: smile 2nd post > Firstly is there anyone here who could make me a copy > of smile. Email me off list and I will give you the addy of a myplay locker that has quite a few versions of the boot you can access. dave marshall --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Message: 10 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:34:22 -0800 (PST) From: Freya Subject: Re: Smile Now I feel very silly for making any kind of comments about a subject I don't know that much about. I've not studied the history of smile. I've read about it here and there and it's fun to read but mostly I just love listening to the music because that's what I think is important. I didn't know there were important luminaries on the list! But now I'm here I might as well carry on digging! ;) --- Carol Kaye wrote: > > Smile would have blown everyone away. > > Yes, I agree and said so on the BBC radio > special....it > > was his best work to date, beating Pet Sounds a > lot imo I totally agree, I mean I do love Pet Sounds of course but I think it would have been better if it was erm, shorter (noooo! Please don't shoot me!) I seem to mostly listen to the second half of the lp. OTOH I do think that Pet Sounds has much better music than Sgt. Pepper's but I'm not sure that it works as well as an album as a single entity from beginning to end in the way that Sgt. Pepper's does or Smile. What do you all think, am I sounding crazy here? I guess I'm talking about concept albums (am I?) Sgt. Pepper's just seems to flow quite well, but I don't find the content especially inspiring. Completely off topic, some of my favourite Beatles recordings are: Strawberry Fields (No 1 wonderful!) Penny Lane (I really have no idea why) and the live recording of "All you need is love" direct to satellite. A whole flowing album of Strawberry Fields type music - now that would have been wonderful! Are there other tracks by the Beatles I should be thinking about? I tend to find I don't have immense enthusiasm for the Beatles and I wonder if it is just that they are so rammed down your throat? > - I played on most of Pet Sounds and most of Smile > too. Wow it must be great to have been involved in something so special! I get the impression that the recording sessions were a lot of fun too from the descriptions I hear (at least that's the way I imagine it) which is of course the way music should be! At least some of the time! > Also, and I said this too on the same interview..... > that movie scores are done in pieces (I've played on > 100s of movie scores, did some of the finest scores > from 60s through 80s), so what's the big deal about > Brian doing Smile in pieces?.....for some reason he and I would have been going "yes, yes" along with it! mind you I do remember someone talking sense and they were at the Smile sessions and describing them and seemed to know what they were talking about (seemed like a voice in the wilderness), perhaps that was you? You know I think it's kind of wonderful that there are so many pieces of smile and you can make your own album and argue over which bit goes where! I find it's kind of funny. It's like the first interactive album! People take it all so seriously though. You know I think both sides are wrong. Theres like the people who go "oh Brian never finished it and and now we can never know how he would have finished it and what he had in mind and he wasn't even sure himself what he has in mind" (usually people who I get the impression don't like smile anyway!) and then there are the people who are like "I've spent 3 years studying this, and I believe that take 327 fits on the end of take 126 along with something that was found in a box labelled "mushrooms" and this is the "Real" smile album the way Brian meant it. I don't mind the latter so much (Go for it I say!) :) but you know, Brian never finished it, and we live in a universe of infinite possibilities, so any smile album you create is the real smile album (isn't that kind of wonderful!) I mean imagine for a moment you are in another world, and Brian is just finishing smile, and a butterfly flies into his room and flutters around and lands on his hand. Brian gently carries the butterfly and lets it out the window and watches it fly on out into the sunset. Brian feels completley inspired, goes right into the studio, and records the butterfly symphony to end the album and moves some of the other tracks around so that they flow into one another and find their way to the butterflies at the end. He is happy and realeases a great album that is hailed across the world. It is the "real" smile album. Now imagine Brian is working quite hard on smile and feels hot so he closes the window, so that no stray insects come flying in, he finished smile and it is hailed as a masterpiece across the land. Now which of these 2 albums is the "real" smile album. ...and even more importantly, does it matter??? Most of the so called smile problems seem to be a matter of post production and editing. Lets face facts, people make changes all the time to albums, they re-mix them for stereo and add bonus tracks and all manner of things. People get really precious about smile though, simply because it never has been released. I guess people are scared that something will become the official smile album and it won't be considered quite right in their eyes, but to be honest I don't think any version of smile will ever be considered the "real" album, probably because there is no real album. And what is real anyway... (erm Freya you should stop here I think!) ;) > quit Smile, probably his personal problems, but I never > saw a change in him at all in the studios all during > those years....he was his normal happy self creating > great music and great recordings. I don't believe people change anyway they just get more complicated, but if you are saying that he didn't go "mad" like people make out. ("Oh Brian did too much acid and went mad and that's why smile didn't come out") then I really don't hold with that at all. These are just the people who don't understand smile and so think it is crazy. Didn't Brian say something about why he didn't finish smile at one point, something about "everyone being against it I don't know why" (not a real quote I just made that up but something like that!) I was saying the other day that there seem to be Beach Boys fans and Brian Wilson fans, and the Beach Boys fans just like the silly surf songs and probably don't even like Pet Sounds that much. That's why I often think it's a shame that he didn't work as a solo act of smile. > Plus, in my interview I made it a point to say how > everyone loves to be a "judge of Brian Wilson, his > music, the way he conducted his life when they > literally don't know about those years and about him > (except what they read) -- just judgemental Well I try never to be judgmental about anyone, I mean I know a lot of people go on about how awful some of the other people were around Brian, but I leave those people to tell their own stories and show themselves as they are. I'm probably as guilty as anyone of making assumptions about Brian though, although it's probably more from listening to things like "I just wasn't made for these times" than reading things. I probably put aspects of myself upon him because I relate to the lyrics, however we all make assumptions about people, even those we think we know really well, even our own family members. Of course, the problem is when people then start being judgmental based on their assumptions. That's kind of horrible, and it's something I've never understood in people. > craziness > like talking about him going around his house in his > robe -- Playboy's Hugh Hefner lives in his robe." erm, yeah and it's like his house, you know, not like the shopping mall or a public place. Maybe these people considered his house a public place. I mean where is he supposed to wear his robe if not in his own house? Maybe this person had a wierd thing about robes? I'll let you into a secret folks, sometimes, I walk around my flat in just my underwear! And it's not even my own flat, I mean, I just rent it off someone!!!! ;) love Freya --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 06:12:49 -0800 (PST) From: Freya Subject: Sunshine Lolipops and Rainbows When first I found out about this list, I read some archive where someone was talking about the song "Sunshine Lolipops and Rainbows" so I downloaded the lyrics and an extract from the song and set about recording a cover! In my mind I had the free design and the 1910 fruitgum company, I set about recording and the vocals came out a bit horrid, and then the music started sounding a little sinister. "Oh dear this wasn't what I had in mind at all" I thought! I managed to make things a little better though and make the vocals less awful. It still sounds kind of wierd though, like the shaggs go into a studio with Phil Spector and Joe Meek and they argue over the production and it all goes wrong! Well not really but it's still kind of wierd. ...and doesn't it sound like Norman Bates playing the music in the background *giggle* Anyway here it is for you all to hear (such a tiny file!) http://www.geocities.com/freya128 It's still kind of special to me, because it is the first piece of music I have recorded in about 3 years! It's just been one disaster after another, but finally I can have some fun. :) love Freya --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- End
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