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Spectropop - Digest Number 141

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      Perfectly safe for playing normal 45 rpm microgroove records

There are 11 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Back to vinyl
           From: "Phil Chapman" 
      2. Spector boxed
           From: Lindsay Martin 
      3. re: the "other" Phil Spector box
           From: "Spector Collector" 
      4. Re: Secrets
           From: "Brad Elliott" 
      5. barbara mcnair
           From: "Jennifer"
      6. Re. Richard & Connie
           From: "Martin Roberts" 
      7. Re: Smile
           From: Tobias Bernsand 
      8. Smile
           From: David Marshall
      9. smile 2nd post
           From: David Marshall
     10. Re: Smile
           From: Freya 
     11. Sunshine Lolipops and Rainbows
           From: Freya 


Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 18:38:02 +0100
   From: "Phil Chapman" 
Subject: Back to vinyl

Tony Leong asked:
> it my imagination, or was "Fine Fine Boy" 
> crudely edited during the first chorus??

Curiosity aroused, I compared some versions of "A Fine
Fine Boy" to discover that the orginal 45 is actually
different from the CD box-set, which appears to be the
70s PSI version with a harsher EQ and a noise reduction
filter. Apart from the tail-end of the count-in being
audible under the intro of the CD version, the first
chorus has been substituted by the second chorus edited
in its place, possibly because it has a slightly stronger
percussion balance. The giveaway is the tracking on
Darlene's vocal, which is spot-on on the 45 going into
the first chorus. Another slight but significant
difference is that the 'spoken' sections reveal that the
45 has (Gold Star) echo on the lead vocal and not on the
backing vocals, whereas the CD has no echo on the lead
vocal, and 'other' echo on the backing vocals, tending to
make the track sound weaker. I've posted the original 45,
for comparison purposes only.

The box set in general is a great way to introduce a
newcomer to Phil's genius, but for die-hard fans like
myself the cleaned-up, noise-reduced quality doesn't
conjure up the original emotion of the 45s, bursting at
the seams, hurtling out of a single loudspeaker. But that
*was* over 35 years ago, and nothing at the time sounded
anything like it. It's interesting that the CD cuts are
theoretically closer to the quality of the master tape.
It would seem that the power of Phil's productions was
actually enhanced by the process of being cut to vinyl.

I would also have liked to have full dates & details of
the recordings, as on the "Best of..." compilations -
that really took me back to those times. The great thing
about having these titles on CD is being able to hear the
subtleties in the frequency extremes hitherto lost to
rumble and hiss - and I can now play them unbearably loud
without the record-deck feeding back!

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Message: 2
   Date: 30 Mar 2001 14:00:20 -0800
   From: Lindsay Martin
Subject: Spector boxed

Al Quaglieri wrote: 
>This may be a heretical thing to say here, but I was 
>quite disappointed by the Wall of Sound box.  
I wouldn't be without "Back To Mono", but for me these
songs don't work as well put together on an album as
they do as individual 45s, popping up on the radio as we
originally heard them, or mixed in with other songs of
the era on homemade CDs/tapes. It always seems to be too
much of a good thing to hear numerous Spector tracks one
after the other.  I think this is because they were
designed as 2-3 minute stand-alone, stand-out singles,
as individual masterpieces rather than album tracks. 
That's what made Brian Wilson pull over when he heard
"Be My Baby"! 

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Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:08:41 -0000
   From: "Spector Collector" 
Subject: re: the "other" Phil Spector box

In digest 137, Jamie talked about a late-'80s five-CD
Phil Spector box set, most copies of which, he says,
were destroyed shortly after its release. I didn't
realize quite what a rarity I had on my hands, but since
I do have it, I thought I'd share the following details:

According to Jamie's information, the rights were
secured in 1987 by Moon Records and the set was
subsequently released two years later by MMG Records.
The copyright date on the box is indeed 1989, but it
shows Alfa Moon as the parent label.

The picture of the cover art to which Jamie provided a
link at

depicts a red front and a green back cover, and doesn't
appear as thick as the released slipcase, which is gold
with blue lettering. The red cover matches that of the
enclosed CD-sized booklet of liner notes. My used copy
didn't come with an obi strip, so I don't know if there
ever was one or whether that's what the green panel was.

One disc each is devoted to The Ronettes, The Crystals,
and Darlene Love; the others are called "Phil Spector's
Greatest Hits" (annoyingly, nine of the 14 tracks on
this one are repeated on the above three) and "Phil
Spector Artists."

This set is the only place to find (however fleetingly)
legitimate CD releases of The Crystals' "On Broadway"
and Darlene's "I Shook the World" and "Baby (I Love You)"
(both originally released as by Bob B. Soxx and the Blue
Jeans), "Playing for Keeps," "Johnny (Baby Please Come
Home)," "I Love Him Like I Love My Very Life," and the
original mix of "Lord If You're a Woman" complete with
"hey hey hey" background chorus as opposed to the
revisionist mix that came out on ABKCO. (These last two
songs appear in stereo.)

Other items of interest: although both groups recorded
versions of "I Wonder," The Crystals' version is
included on both their and The Ronettes' discs, and the
mix of The Ronettes' "Paradise" is radically different
than any other release of the tune, with the ocean and
bird sound effects much more prominent.

I agree that the sound is significantly better than on
subsequent releases on ABKCO, and note with interest
that Eiichi Ohtaki (an occasional subject of discussion
here) is namechecked under "Great Thanks."

David A. Young

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Message: 4
   Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 05:53:31 -0600
   From: "Brad Elliott" 
Subject: Re: Secrets

Mike Arcidiacono wrote:

>>> BTW, does anyone have any info on the Secrets who
>>> had a release on Red Bird 10076?
>> I've never heard the single, but it ought to be straight
>> teenage rock 'n' roll.  The group is one of the first
>> entries on the resume of Max Weinberg, drummer for Bruce
>> Springsteen and the Conan O'Brien Show.
> I think that is an error. As Red Bird closed in mid 1965,
> Max would have been about 9 or 10 years old.  It's also
> possible its a different Max Weinberg, that's not an
> unusual name by any means, especially here on the East
> Coast.


Don't give up your day job for betting on music trivia
questions.  :-)

Max was born in 1951, so he'd have been a young teenager
(13 or 14) when the Red Bird single came out.  He's said
he started playing in bands in April 1964 and his first
band, The Epsilons, played at the New Jersey Pavilion at
the New York World's Fair in 1964.  So, just from an
experience and age standpoint, it's certainly possible
that he could have played on the Red Bird single.

And then there's this from an interview with Max that
appeared in the "Thunder Road" fanzine back in the
summer of 1979:

Q: Let's talk about pre-Bruce records you've been on.

A: "Everyday," the Buddy Holly song, by The Secrets on
the Red Bird label. Totally obscure, didn't sell, but it
was fun.


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Message: 5
   Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 19:15:42 -0000
   From: "Jennifer" 
Subject: barbara mcnair

i absolutely adore her song "you're gonna love my baby"
but the two times i've bought a cd with this song its
been a really cheesy 80s remake she did. does anybody
know where i can get the original version?

much appreciated!!


ps: thanks to all for your posts about the spector set

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 6
   Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 21:11:45 +0100
   From: "Martin Roberts" 
Subject: Re. Richard & Connie

Hi Peter,

Well! Is Richard Williams really the sports editor of
The Guardian? A great writer. He has a new book "Long
Distance Call Writings on Music" published by Aurum
Press. U.S.$'s & GBP quoted so assume available in the
States. Mainly re-published/re-written articles from
Melody Maker, The Times, Mojo etc. As you would expect
>from Richard  a catholic choice of artists covered
Gladys Knight, Bob Dylan, Nico etc. Of particular
intrest to Spectropopers is a re-write of "Out Of His
Head The Sound Of Phil Spector"'s first chapter "And So
This Is Christmas"

Hi Jack,

You named most of Connie Stevens best tracks - a few you
"I Couldn't Say No" wr Goffin/King/Ripp B-Side of Mr
"Don't You Want To Love Me" also Goffin/King B-Side of
"In My Room" 
"A Girl Never Knows" wr Sloan/Barri B-Side Of "They're
Jealous Of Me" also arr & pr David Gates. 

Of interest (quite good) "Wouldn't It Be Nice" ( A real
Beach Boy tease! This song wr Clifford)/"Cinderella
Could Have Saved Us All" both sides pr Richard Delvy on
MGM 13906 and "She'll Never Understand Him (Like I Do)"
Jackie DeShannon song on Bell 866. 

All the above I have on 45's but bought "The Best Of
Connie Stevens" Japanese WBros WPCB-3535 CD for "Little
Miss-Understood" writer credits listed Botkin/Garfield
but no pr or arr credits on the CD. Never been tempted
by any of her 60's L.P.'s so may well be goodies I'm
unaware of.


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Message: 7
   Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 12:23:51 +0200
   From: Tobias Bernsand 
Subject: Re: Smile

Kingsley Abbot wrote:

> Regarding Smile I have my own feelings about what it
> could/should have been.  Recall that some of it,
> "Cabinessence" sections for example, were finished
> before Pet Sounds was even released

This is not correct --- Pet Sounds was released in May
1966 and the first session for Cabin Essence wasn't held
until the 3rd of October.

> there was I feel a very great album potential within 
> reach but that Brian got sidetracked into the Elemental 
> themes

I don't think The Elements was the big problem as much as
not being able to complete a version of Heroes and
Villians until after the album had been abandoned. In
October '66, the song more than likely consisted of
sections like I'm In Great Shape (aka Eggs & Grits), and
Barnyard, which were perhaps moved into their own song
(I'm In Great Shape) by December when he recorded several
of those major key chorus chants [we don't know this for
a fact, they being recorded in December, but there's some
evidence to back it up, such as witness accounts by Paul
WIlliams]. That version seems to have been junked by the
3rd of January 1967, when he's recording a complete new
version with Bag of Tricks (aka Alt Whistles), Do A Lot,
and Bicycle Rider (finished two days later). By February,
he's doing the Cantina version, and by March, he
apparently worked on a five-minute version....

I'm one of the few who believes that Smile doesn't really
have anything to do with the music of Pet Sounds, so I
don't think they can be compared in terms of being part
of the same kind of projects. The lyrics are different,
the arrangements are different, the production is
different, the song structure is different, the sound is
different, etc. Smile has more in common with All Summer
Long than Pet Sounds.


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Message: 8
   Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:59:42 -0700
   From: David Marshall
Subject: Smile

> Regarding Smile I have my own feelings about what it
> could/should have been...  What is commonly available
> as Smile on the various (expensive) bootlegs is not,
> IMO, any sort of great album...  I'd be most interested
> to hear other list members feelings about it.
> Kingsley Abbott

I don't know about the "expensive" boots.  There are so
many versions easily downloaded from the web for free. 
Smile is such an interesting album for me.  Easily Heroes
and Villains with all its different versions, snippets
etc.. is by far my personal favorite of BW work.  I love
the story element of Smile and really can see it almost
as some huge theatrical performance. I suppose the
theories of how close Smile came to conclusion are as
numerous as the versions of the boot floating about.  I
think with Prayer, Cabinessence, Good Vibrations, Wind
Chimes, Wonderful, Heroes and Villains, Vegetables, the
essential components of Surf's Up, Love to Say Da Da and
possibily Fire there, the album is pretty much available
in enough form to know at least what the final product
would have approached.  Although, if nothing else, Good
Vibrations teaches us that even these more finished
versions could be nothing more than a link in the final

But for me even what we have in the unfinished version is
the most incredible music I have ever heard.  So I would
probably disagree and say to me it is great.  It is
constant in my listening and the fact that it is
unfinished may be the most interesting part.  I can still
play with it in my mind and wonder...

dave marshall 

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Message: 9
   Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 08:02:56 -0700
   From: David Marshall 
Subject: smile 2nd post

> Firstly is there anyone here who could make me a copy
> of smile.

Email me off list and I will give you the addy of a
myplay locker that has quite a few versions of the boot
you can access.

dave marshall

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Message: 10
   Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:34:22 -0800 (PST)
   From: Freya 
Subject: Re: Smile

Now I feel very silly for making any kind of comments
about a subject I don't know that much about. I've not
studied the history of smile. I've read about it here
and there and it's fun to read but mostly I just love
listening to the music because that's what I think is
important. I didn't know there were important
luminaries on the list! But now I'm here I might as
well carry on digging! ;)

--- Carol Kaye  wrote:
> > Smile would have blown everyone away.
> Yes, I agree and said so on the BBC radio
> was his best work to date, beating Pet Sounds a 
> lot imo

I totally agree, I mean I do love Pet Sounds of course
but I think it would have been better if it was erm,
shorter (noooo! Please don't shoot me!) I seem to
mostly listen to the second half of the lp.

OTOH I do think that Pet Sounds has much better music
than Sgt. Pepper's but I'm not sure that it works as
well as an album as a single entity from beginning to
end in the way that Sgt. Pepper's does or Smile. What do
you all think, am I sounding crazy here? I guess I'm
talking about concept albums (am I?) Sgt. Pepper's just
seems to flow quite well, but I don't find the content
especially inspiring.

Completely off topic, some of my favourite Beatles 
recordings are:

Strawberry Fields (No 1 wonderful!)
Penny Lane (I really have no idea why)
and the live recording of "All you need is love"
direct to satellite. 

A whole flowing album of Strawberry Fields type music
- now that would have been wonderful! Are there other
tracks by the Beatles I should be thinking about? I
tend to find I don't have immense enthusiasm for the
Beatles and I wonder if it is just that they are so
rammed down your throat?

> - I played on most of Pet Sounds and most of Smile
> too.

Wow it must be great to have been involved in
something so special! I get the impression that the
recording sessions were a lot of fun too from the
descriptions I hear (at least that's the way I imagine
it) which is of course the way music should be! At
least some of the time!

> Also, and I said this too on the same interview.....
> that movie scores are done in pieces (I've played on
> 100s of movie scores, did some of the finest scores
> from 60s through 80s), so what's the big deal about
> Brian doing Smile in pieces?.....for some reason he

and I would have been going "yes, yes" along with it!
mind you I do remember someone talking sense and they
were at the Smile sessions and describing them and
seemed to know what they were talking about (seemed
like a voice in the wilderness), perhaps that was you?

You know I think it's kind of wonderful that there are
so many pieces of smile and you can make your own
album and argue over which bit goes where! I find it's
kind of funny. It's like the first interactive album!
People take it all so seriously though. You know I
think both sides are wrong. Theres like the people who
go "oh Brian never finished it and and now we can
never know how he would have finished it and what he
had in mind and he wasn't even sure himself what he
has in mind" (usually people who I get the impression
don't like smile anyway!) and then there are the
people who are like "I've spent 3 years studying this,
and I believe that take 327  fits on the end of take
126 along with something that was found in a box
labelled "mushrooms" and this is the "Real" smile
album the way Brian meant it. I don't mind the latter
so much (Go for it I say!) :) but you know, Brian
never finished it, and we live in a universe of
infinite possibilities, so any smile album you create
is the real smile album (isn't that kind of

I mean imagine for a moment you are in another world,
and Brian is just finishing smile, and a butterfly
flies into his room and flutters around and lands on
his hand. Brian gently carries the butterfly and lets
it out the window and watches it fly on out into the
sunset. Brian feels completley inspired, goes right
into the studio, and records the butterfly symphony to
end the album and moves some of the other tracks
around so that they flow into one another and find
their way to the butterflies at the end. He is happy
and realeases a great album that is hailed across the
world. It is the "real" smile album.

Now imagine Brian is working quite hard on smile and
feels hot so he closes the window, so that no stray
insects come flying in, he finished smile and it is
hailed as a masterpiece across the land.

Now which of these 2 albums is the "real" smile album.

...and even more importantly, does it matter???

Most of the so called smile problems seem to be a
matter of post production and editing. Lets face
facts, people make changes all the time to albums,
they re-mix them for stereo and add bonus tracks and
all manner of things. People get really precious about
smile though, simply because it never has been
released. I guess people are scared that something
will become the official smile album and it won't be
considered quite right in their eyes, but to be honest
I don't think any version of smile will ever be
considered the "real" album, probably because there is
no real album. And what is real anyway... (erm Freya
you should stop here I think!) ;)

> quit Smile, probably his personal problems, but I  never
> saw a change in him at all in the studios all during
> those years....he was his normal happy self creating
> great music and great recordings.

I don't believe people change anyway they just get
more complicated, but if you are saying that he didn't
go "mad" like people make out. ("Oh Brian did too much
acid and went mad and that's why smile didn't come
out") then I really don't hold with that at all. These
are just the people who don't understand smile and so
think it is crazy. Didn't Brian say something about
why he didn't finish smile at one point, something
about "everyone being against it I don't know why"
(not a real quote I just made that up but something
like that!)

I was saying the other day that there seem to be
Beach Boys fans and Brian Wilson fans, and the Beach
Boys fans just like the silly surf songs and probably
don't even like Pet Sounds that much. That's why I
often think it's a shame that he didn't work as a solo
act of smile.

> Plus, in my interview I made it a point to say how
> everyone loves to be a "judge of Brian Wilson, his
> music, the way he conducted his life when they
> literally don't know about those years and about him
> (except what they read) -- just judgemental

Well I try never to be judgmental about anyone, I
mean I know a lot of people go on about how awful some
of the other people were around Brian, but I leave
those people to tell their own stories and show
themselves as they are.

I'm probably as guilty as anyone of making assumptions
about Brian though, although it's probably more from
listening to things like "I just wasn't made for these
times" than reading things. I probably put aspects of
myself upon him because I relate to the lyrics,
however we all make assumptions about people, even
those we think we know really well, even our own
family members. Of course, the problem is when people
then start being judgmental based on their
assumptions. That's kind of horrible, and it's
something I've never understood in people.

> craziness
> like talking about him going around his house in his
> robe -- Playboy's Hugh Hefner lives in his robe."

erm, yeah and it's like his house, you know, not like
the shopping mall or a public place. Maybe these
people considered his house a public place. I mean
where is he supposed to wear his robe if not in his
own house? Maybe this person had a wierd thing about

I'll let you into a secret folks, sometimes, I walk
around my flat in just my underwear! And it's not even
my own flat, I mean, I just rent it off someone!!!! ;)



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Message: 11
   Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 06:12:49 -0800 (PST)
   From: Freya
Subject: Sunshine Lolipops and Rainbows

When first I found out about this list, I read some
archive where someone was talking about the song
"Sunshine Lolipops and Rainbows" so I downloaded the
lyrics and an extract from the song and set about
recording a cover!

In my mind I had the free design and the 1910 fruitgum
company, I set about recording and the vocals came out
a bit horrid, and then the music started sounding a
little sinister. "Oh dear this wasn't what I had in
mind at all" I thought! I managed to make things a
little better though and make the vocals less awful.

It still sounds kind of wierd though, like the shaggs
go into a studio with Phil Spector and Joe Meek and
they argue over the production and it all goes wrong!
Well not really but it's still kind of wierd.

...and doesn't it sound like Norman Bates playing the
music in the background *giggle*

Anyway here it is for you all to hear (such a tiny

It's still kind of special to me, because it is the
first piece of music I have recorded in about 3 years!
It's just been one disaster after another, but finally
I can have some fun. :)



--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

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