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Spectropop - Digest Number 6


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                           His Master's Voice

There are 8 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Jill Gibson
           From: Jason Penick tecmofiend
      2. PSI discography additions
           From: "Spector Collector" 
      3. Spector's contributions to the songs he produced 
           From: Frank 
      4. Re: Mann/Weil
           From: "Jamie LePage" 
      5. From director Alan Boyd
           From: Carol Kaye 
      6. FWD: Spector's Writing Credits
           From: Spectropop Group
      7. FWD: Cher --Warner Spector 0400 and 0402
           From: Spectropop Group 
      8. Re: mann/weil
           From: John Frank 


Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:38:04 EDT
   From: Jason Penick tecmofiend
Subject: Jill Gibson

Hello all!

Wondering if any out there have any info regarding 60's
folk-pop singer Jill Gibson.  For those who don't know,
Jill was Michelle Phillips replacement in the Mamas and
Papas (when Michelle left John for the first time), and
she was also Jan Barry's girlfriend for a long time
before his car accident.  Anyway a very nice person sent
me a copy of some Jan Barry sessions that included Jill
singing a song she wrote (that J&D later covered) called
"Easy as 1,2,3", as well as some sessions I surmise to be
Jill singing harmonies with Shelly Fabares.  Many of you
probably know, Jill also wrote the song "How Can I Be
Down" for the Yellow Balloon.  Apparently there is also a
Jill Gibson 45" available, "Easy As 1,2,3" b/w "Jilly's
Flip Side" (written by P.F. Sloan). What I'm trying to
locate are any other sessions that maybe out there,
including (hopefully) a version of "How Can I..." with
Jill singing.  Any info sent to me or posted to this
board would be most appreciated!

Surf's Up!

Jason Penick     

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Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 01:27:59 GMT
   From: "Spector Collector" 
Subject: PSI discography additions

John Rausch recently responded to someone's request for
a discography of the Phil Spector International label,
concluding it with a note that he'd seen mention of a
Calhoon 12" single but didn't have release info on it.
In The United States, there were two Calhoon 12-inchers,
each with one recorded and one blank side: PRO 601, "(Do
You Wanna) Dance Dance Dance," and PRO 627, "Soul Man,"
clocking in at 6:19 and 5:48, respectively. Does anyone
have information about other countries' releases of
these singles, if any?


David A. Young

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Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 25 Jul 00 09:10:17 +0100
   From: Frank 
Subject: Spector's contributions to the songs he produced 

Jack Madani wrote:

>Mann and Weil were stumbling to explain to the host just
>what Spector contributed to the songwriting process that
>would justify his name on the writing credits.  I love
>Spector, love him love him love him love him. Great
>producer.  Great great great.  But after reading that
>Ribowsky book, which albeit definitely had a point of
>view about Phil the not-so-good personal guy, and then
>hearing Mann and Weil not being able to say exactly what
>Spector added to songs, I'm still not so sure about his
>contributions to those songs where his name is the third
>one on the songwriting credit.

Spector was one of the first producers to consider that
what he brought to the final sound of a recorded work
was definitely part of the song itself, thus justifying
his share of the copyright of the songs.

This practice became quite popular in later years,
mostly with producers who did not really bring anything
specific to the songs.

It is definitely quite different to what some artists
and/or producers did with some of the great blues
artists, simply and purely stealing songs away from
their rightful owners.

It is undeniable that Spector's contributions to the
great songs he produced earned him a share of the
credits. What would have happened to these songs had
they not been produced by him remains an open question.


--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:12:56 -0000
   From: "Jamie LePage" 
Subject: Re: Mann/Weil

Jack_Madani wrote:

> I happened to catch Barry Mann and Cynthia Weill on NPR's
> Fresh Air program.  It was an interesting interview,
> nothing earthshattering but interesting nonetheless.

I heard a Barry and Cyn interview recently as well. I
found it fascinating, particularly the way Cyn empathized
with Barry's frustration at having produced his own
version of We Gotta Get Out of This Place for Red Bird,
and how Leiber, Stoller and everyone were confident it
would be a hit, only to discover without any warning that
the Mickie Most cover was already out, already a hit in
UK and on its way to the USA.

> Points of interest:  they compared the Animals' version
> of We Gotta Get Outta This Place with Mann's own
> version... And ignoring the age of the two recordings,
> you really could hear an ocean's worth of difference in
> the approach to the song.  

The 60s Barry Mann original (unreleased) too has that "On
Broadway/Magic Town" sort of feel that is lacking in the
Animals' version. The Animals' record is very good,
though, even if it differs from Barry's original vision
of how the song should sound. The record was a worldwide
smash, so I guess that's some consolation, but Cyn
sounded so charming when she talked about Barry's
disappointment; well all I can say is by the sound of the
interview they appear to be a very close couple.

> Mann said that the British Invasion forced him to have to
> think in terms of guitar-based melodies...

I guess all the Brill writers faced the same situation.
Ironic in a way since so many of the early Brit Invasion
sides were covers of earlier recordings of Brill
Building compositions.

> Weil said how her lyrics mostly never really fit in with
> the girlgroup vibe, whereas Goffin and King had that down
> cold.

In the interview I heard, Cyn came off as very humble,
epecially given her record of successes. That too was
very charming. Chico's Girl is one of the greatest gg
lyrics ever! 

> Mann sang a few bars of an alternate version of "Only In
> America," a darker, cynical view of how America treated
> minorities.

Here's a couple of quotes from an article appearing on
the following URL:

> "We thought Barry and Cynthia's song was good," says
> Leiber. "But it was too straight a protest song. I
> thought it needed to be a bit more playful and comic..."
> "...and a lot more ironic," added Mike. 
> ...Only in America was written with the intent of
> delivering a message about the contemporary life of black
> America. An original verse was: "Only in America/Land of
> opportunity/ Can they save a seat in the back of the bus
> just for me./ Only in America/Where they preach the
> Golden Rule/Will they start to march when my kids want to
> go to school." 

Was that the passage Barry sang? 

> Mann and Weil were stumbling to explain to the host just
> what Spector contributed to the songwriting process that
> would justify his name on the writing credits...I'm still
> not so sure about his contributions to those songs where
> his name is the third one on the songwriting credit.

It's a tough one to be sure. However, I would just like
to point out the following:

1. The Ronettes records seem to be nearly autobiographical,
telling the story of Phil & Ronnie's romance. I believe
this was by design - Spector's design to be specific. 

2. Most of the writers Spector used were already
established, and while getting a tune placed with
Philles was nothing to sneeze at, I do not believe
successful hit song writers of Mann/Weil's calibre would
find it necessary to give away a portion of their
writing in order to secure the cover. This sort of thing
typically happens in a writer's early days, and after
reaching a certain level of success, it stands to reason
such writers might become less willing to part with a
share of their works. In the case of Philles, the
pattern seems to be reversed. Many of the earlier
Philles hits are not credited to Spector/Mother Bertha,
implying that Spector took a more active role in writing
for Philles artists during the latter days of the
label's operation.

3. Check out the song writing credits on "Gee the Moon
is Shining Bright, Chapel of Love, Why Don't they let Us
Fall in Love, etc. These are Jeff/Ellie productions
released under Leiber/Stoller's Red Bird, and
co-published by Leiber/Stoller's Trio Music. Remember,
Spector studied under Leiber & Stoller. Apparently Barry,
Greenwich, Leiber and Stoller all acknowledged Spector's
writing contributions.

> Weil said that the words in the chorus to "You've Lost
> That Lovin' Feelin'" were actually dummy lyrics, and that
> Spector told her to leave them, they were perfect as is.

That should count for something I would think!

> But after reading that Ribowsky book...

Around the time the book was first issued, there was an
article in Billboard about Spector trying to have it
pulled from the shelves based on inaccuracies. The
article quoted Jeff Barry, and I recall him being
adamant that Ribowsky was wrong and that of course
Spector earned his share of the songs they wrote
together. Every time this subject comes up I think about
that article and wish I had saved a copy. If anyone has
it I would be delighted to receive a copy, even as a
scan sent via email.

btw, the Ribowsky book has just been reissued. Despite
its flaws, it's a worthwhile read. Check out this review
on the book's reissue:

All the best,


--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 15:04:57 -0700
   From: Carol Kaye 
Subject: From director Alan Boyd

Here is Alan's reply to my disgust at the dumb made-up
remark by the Toronto journalist about Brian Wilson's
"sandbox" episode:

> Carol,
> This is another example of a journalist taking a shred of
> a documented incident (in this case, Brian building a
> sandbox in his living room), misremembering it, and
> combining it with another misremembered incident (Brian
> retreating from the world in the mid-70's and spending a
> lot of time at home).
> Rumors and shreds of facts piled on top of other rumors
> leading to a complete misrepresentation of the truth. 
> Yes, it's disgusting. And the worst part is, the true
> story is well-documented and easily available. Lazy
> journalists have been the bane of Brian's existence for
> years. Readers will pick up on this idiot's story, and
> the next time they hear "Wouldn't It be Nice" on the
> radio, they'll turn to whoever they're with
> and say, "Hey, that's Brian Wilson - you know he spent
> two years in a sandbox."  And the person they're with
> will be some poor slob who was stoned while watching The
> Beach Boys' ABC miniseries, and he'll say, "Hey, didn't
> he hang out with Manson?"
> And the next thing you know, there'll be stories
> circulating about how Brian and Charles Manson lived
> together in a sandbox.
> Alan

I'd be laughing except this has been the TRUE cycle of
events with sleazeball and/or lazy journalists
world-wide over the years about Brian Wilson.....

Yo Alan!!  You got that right! 

 Carol Kaye

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Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:24:26 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Spectropop Group 
Subject: FWD: Spector's Writing Credits

>From: "Kingsley"  
Subject: Spector's writing credits 
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:55:05 +0100  

I read Jack's recent posting about Phil Spector's regular 
co-writing credits with interest. For a long while I was 
suspicious that his name was all part of a deal that was 
par for the course at that time. We all know that some 
things just work that way, and always have done. So it was 
that, when I had occasion to conduct a lengthy interview 
with Ellie Greenwich a couple of years back for England's 
Record Collector magazine, I put just this point to her. 
What she said was that Phil DID contribute in meaningful 
and musical ways to things that she had written with Jeff B. 
It was more than just finishing something off. The way she 
worked with Jeff was that either of them would initiate 
material, and that they would take something like a 
"Work-in-progress" to Phil when all three would work on it, 
maybe re-working a bridge or developing a hook etc. She 
described him as being "very musical" with a great commercial 
ear. This of course could have been a 'political' answer with 
Ellie taking an understandably sensible approach. Phil is well 
known as wanting to maintain control over his product (Not 
unreasonably), and if he saw quotes like "Phil did nothing" 
he would curtail use of certain music even more. However 
Ellie's answers did convince me (and I am a natural skeptic) 
that Phil did have significant input to the Ellie & Jeff 
material at least. Whether or not this was the same case with 
other writing teams can only be guesswork. I suspect that Phil 
would have sought to get in on the act with Barry & Cynthia 
and indeed Anders&Poncia, both teams being more than able to turn
out great pop songs. But it was Phil's ball game then. He was 
ultimately hot, making some of the greatest pop EVER, so why not. 
I reckon that he had a strong enough track record to justify 
writing involvement in songs that he was going to hone into hits. 
Parallels can be drawn with the situation between Mike (ideas) 
Love and Brian (musical talent) Wilson. Although having talked to 
Tony Asher and seen some of his interview material, it seems ML 
claimed credit if he happened to ring whilst Brian and Tony were 
writing!! The question ultimately is what the input does to
the power of the song - sometimes the smallest tweak can make all 
the difference. I guess we should all have been there...

Kingsley Abbott

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 7
   Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 19:29:18 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Spectropop Group 
Subject: FWD: Cher --Warner Spector 0400 and 0402

>From:  "Joseph E. Vine Jr." 
To:  spectropop
Subject:  Cher --Warner Spector 0400 and 0402
Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 2000 23:27:13 GMT

I need scans of (or web locations showing) both sides 
of the labels of Cher's Warner-Spector singles 

0400 A Woman's Story / Baby, I Love You 
0402 A Love Like Yours / (Just Enough To Keep Me) Hangin' On.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

Message: 8
   Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:08:24 -0700
   From: John Frank 
Subject: Re: mann/weil

Jack_Madani wrote regarding Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil's
appearance on "Fresh Air":

Good summary, Jack, except I don't agree at all with what 
you said about this part:

"Mann and Weil were stumbling to explain to the host just 
what Spector contributed to the songwriting process that 
would justify his name on the writing credits. ...and then 
hearing Mann and Weil not being able to say exactly what 
Spector added to songs, I'm still not so sure about his 
contributions to those songs where his name is the third 
one on the songwriting credit."

In fact, I was *expecting* them to say that he took credit 
for a minor change here and there, or that he just released 
the song with his name on it. But to my ears, they 
immediately said that he wrote the part of the lyric in the 
middle part, where it goes, "Baby, baby, I'd get down on my
knees for you / If you would only love me like you used to 
do. / We had a love, etc." They had nothing but nice things 
to say about Spector. And this coming from someone who's not 
a Spector apologist.

I loved the interview, by the way. They came across as affable,
knowledgeable and "real." Much like Ellie Greenwich did on 
Gross' show. Terry Gross not only celebrates jazz heritage; 
she's also had some fine interviews with people from the 
rock/pop/r+b era, too, and they're not always with the usual 


--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

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