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Spectropop V#0379

  • From: The Spectropop Group
  • Date: 01/28/98

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       Volume #0379                        January 28, 2000   
        Here's the beat and the feel of today's young music
    Subject:     Cookies and company
    Date:        Thu, 27 Jan 2000 01:21:10
    From:        Brian Ferrari
    To:          Spectropop!
    Hello all;
    I am usually several digests behind in my Spectropop
    reading - this keeps me from posting, as my questions and
    comments are usually expressed by other listmembers. You
    are such a knowledgeable bunch. I feel like a student
    among you.
    Here are a few thoughts I wanted to share:
    RE: Soft Pop - has anyone else noticed that Gary Troxel of
    the Fleetwoods has been getting considerable press
    coverage lately? He and his wife are trying to gain
    visitation rights to their grandchild. Their son has
    passed away, his wife has remarried and is not allowing
    them to visit the grandchild as much as they would like. I
    believe this case has gone to the Supreme Court. It has
    raised many questions regarding the rights of grandparents.
    This was the lead story on NBC Nightly News recently. I
    have also read several articles on the case. None of them
    mention Gary's notoriety in The Fleetwoods, but he is
    instantly recognizable: that same boyish face is still
    RE: The South Bank show featuring Cher - these often air
    on the Bravo cable station. I would imagine that this
    episode will surface here in the US.
    RE: Fictitious group names - Excluding singer/songwriters
    such as Ellie Greenwich, the winner in this category has
    to be The Cookies. It amazes me how many different group
    names they had songs released under. I am always
    discovering (thanks to the liner notes on many UK
    compilations) different groups that were actually The
    The Cinderellas ("Baby Baby I Still Love You", 
    "Please Don't Wake Me", "Good Good Lovin")
    The Honeybees ("One Wonderful Night", "She Don't 
    Deserve Him", "Some Of Your Lovin")
    Bach's Lunch ("Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow")
    The Cupcakes ("The Pied Piper")
    The Palisades ("Make The Night A Little Longer") 
    I am also pretty sure that they were The Emeralds ("I
    Wanna Make Him Mine", "Did You Ever Love A Guy", "Dancing
    Anyone else know of groups that were actually The Cookies?
    Any additions to this list would be helpful.
    I would also love to know anything about The Cookies.
    Earl-Jean McCrea is pretty easy to identify on record.
    Different sources site either Margaret Ross or Dorothy
    Jones as the belty lead singer of numbers like "I Never
    Dreamed" and many of the above named recordings. 
    Can anyone give any backround into this amazing group?
    What happened to them after the 60's heyday?
    One of my favorite all-time girl group records is their
    1967 Warner Brothers single "Wounded". Anyone know if they
    recorded other sides at Warner Brothers?
    Brian Ferrari
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Hello everybody
    Date:        Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:29:44
    From:        claudia
    To:          Spectropop!
    I am looking for a copy of the cd box set
                            WHO ROCKED THE 60'S.
    I will pay you well for it.
    Thank you
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     marketing and studio musicians
    Date:        Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:08:28
    From:        Nat Kone
    To:          Spectropop!
    >Subject:     Very true
    >From:        Carol Kaye
    >You should have seen the ages of the studio musicians who 
    >played on all the rock and roll hit records we put out in 
    >the 60s LA recording scene.
    >Some of the record co's in the mid 60s tried to record 
    >with their own artists' road groups, thinking they could 
    >save the studio musicians' fees 
    >Well, that lasted a few short weeks, they humbly begged us
    >to come back to work for them,  They didn't try that again
    > until the 70s when the groups like Toto (I taught David
    >Hungate btw, the bassist), some were able to play their own
    >music well.
    >It's got something to do with marketing alright. Do you 
    >think the Beach Boys would have sold as well if the public
    >knew (back then) who really played on their recordings?
    Okay look.  I do remember having my little teenage heart
    broken when I found out about who actually played on
    some of my favorite records.
    Or more to the point, who didn't play on the records.
    And I'm sure I could still be surprised - and
    heartbroken - to hear about other records which, to this
    day, I still assume were recorded by the actual group.
    Like Paul Revere and the Raiders.  I wouldn't want to
    find out that Drake Levin and Smitty didn't play on any
    of those records.
    Or that Zal Yanovsky didn't play on the Lovin' Spoonful
    And there's also enough teenager still in me to find it
    incredibly cool that there's someone on this list who
    played on so many of my favourite records.
    BUT I loved the Byrds when I first heard them because it
    was a beautiful, exciting (new) sound.  I loved them
    before I knew what their names were or what they looked
    like.  And I don't much care who decided that they would
    record a Dylan song or that they would try to impose
    electric instruments on folk songs or folk harmonies.
    I'd still like to think that McGuinn and Clark had
    something to do with finding that sound but I didn't
    love the record just because I thought it was a bunch of
    drug-taking hippies who made it.  I loved it because it
    wasn't Fabian.
    I was like ten years old.  Everyone was older than me. 
    I didn't know that some of them weren't that much older
    than me.  I'm not sure how much I would have cared to
    find out that some of the musicians were in their early
    thirties rather than in their early twenties.
    I think it's really cool that Ms. Kaye played on Mel
    Torme's "rock" records, which I (now) have and love. 
    But it's just plain silly to claim that it was marketing
    that made me love Donovan's "Sunshine Superman" album
    and prefer it to Mel's hipster cover of the title tune.
    I'm not going to claim purity for Donovan and utter
    crass commercialism for Mel. (Though on a side note, I'm
    still amazed to hear that Mel apparently distanced
    himself from his great Claus Ogerman produced "I'm
    Coming Home baby" LP)
    But there's a difference between the two of them.  And
    marketing and image don't cover it.  I don't know who
    actually played on Donovan's album - and I loved the
    whole album, still do - but I have to believe that
    somewhere in the process, there was a musician trying to
    find a sound, trying to express himself.  And I think
    that came through to me as a kid.
    And if I even heard Mel's cover at the time and if I
    tossed it on the heap with all the other similar
    "attempts", it wasn't just the failure of Mel's
    marketing machine.  Or my youthful gullibility.
    And one more thing.  If marketing to the youth market
    was so effective, how come we laughed at so many of
    their attempts?
    (Of course, we who laughed then became the marketers and
    we did learn from their mistakes.)
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     It's not all marketing
    Date:        Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:04:30
    From:        "Joseph Scott"
    To:          Spectropop!>
    Hi Nat, I think you and I are on the same page about
    this stuff. You said: "I can listen to Andy Williams
    singing 'God Only Knows' and love it because he has a
    beautiful voice, it's a nice arrangement and it's a
    great song. What's not to like?" ALRIGHT! Exactly, this
    is the kind of thing I'm talking about.
    I didn't say it's all marketing. I said some people have
    talent and some don't, and the *rest* is marketing.
    Totally apart from marketing, some music is great and
    some is poor, no doubt about that.
    Re the intentions of the performers, I think intentions
    can be very interesting to go research in their own
    right, but I don't think there's much correspondence at
    all between "pure" intentions (or whatever you want to
    call it) and great product, e.g., Gabor Szabo and Eric
    Burdon had very genuine commitments to the Summer Of
    Love and its associated notions, much more so than some
    of the other artists who made Summer Of Lovish stuff,
    but I don't think that in of itself can or did make
    their music better than the other artists'.
    Or, to look at it from another of the many possible
    angles, often the studio musicians were doing their own
    thing anyway -- Carol Kaye played bass in exactly the
    same funky fast style on Mel Torme's "Games People Play"
    that she did on the Four Tops' "Eleanor Rigby"; Howard
    Roberts' amazing guitar solos for the Electric Prunes c.
    '68 were in the exact same style as his for David
    Axelrod; Tommy Tedesco played exactly the same in places
    with Zappa as with Simon and Garfunkel, etc. (Digression
    -- cool comparison: Carol Kaye on bass on the Four Tops'
    "Reach Out I'll Be There" and on S&G's "Scarborough Fair."
    Isolate the one track with the electric bass in the
    stereo mix of "Scarborough" and you can especially hear
    the similarity. E.g. listen to Carol's last bit, near
    the end of "Scarborough," and then "Reach Out." Both
    recorded in L.A. in '66.) To whatever extent the studio
    musicians are doing their own thing, again the
    *intentions* of the singers are not too relevant to how
    good the record sounds.
    Supposing Donovan's "Sunshine Superman" is better than
    Mel's (which as Carol points out is subjective anyway),
    then there's some reason for that, but I'm not at all
    sure it's the matter of who wrote it. Billie Holiday,
    Elvis Presley, Roger Daltrey, and Anita Kerr, e.g., all
    do it for me singing other people's songs.
    Carol, thanks for your comments, and thanks for being
    Carol Kaye! :-) Can you tell us more about Dennis Budimir?
    He seems to have played on everything, every style.
    Joseph Scott
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Prim schoolteacher???????
    Date:        Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:32:27
    From:        Jamie LePage
    To:          Spectropop!
    Carol wrote:
    > You should have seen the conventional clothing we all
    > wore, the butch haircuts, and I looked like a prim
    > school-teacher (and still do), etc.
    Nope. Uh-uh. No way. Check out these two photos, people:
    No schoolteacher of mine was ever THAT groovy. Dig those
    shades! And the boots! Hipper than hip!
    Seeing these record date photos of the session players and
    listening to session tapes with the off mic exchanges 
    between takes help me to form a mental picture of what it 
    must have been like to record in those days. Fascinating, 
    and it makes the records all the more interesting to 
    listen to.
    Besides, ultimately, the grooviest way to dress IS in
    conventional clothing. It works. It always has. It always
    will. I bet none of you session musicians ever got booted 
    out of Martoni's for being inappropriately dressed! (not-
    so-subtle Sonny Bono reference here).
    And while I am gushing here about your photos and all, just 
    let me add thanks once again for sharing your comments with 
    us here, Carol.
    Jamie "chinos and oxfords rule!" LePage
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     designed for ignorant consumers of pop
    Date:        Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:10:32
    From:        DJ Jimmy B
    To:          Spectropop!
    In a message dated 1/26/0 12:39:31 PM, you wrote:
    >You should have seen the ages of the studio musicians who 
    >played on all the rock and roll hit records we put out in 
    >the 60s LA recording scene. And the fact that a great deal
    >of them were fine jazz musicians, and the rest mostly 
    >big-band musicians, hardly a rocker on those recordings.
    >And around the younger newer bunch of producers (who we 
    >quickly surmised didn't know much about producing actually
    >but they had the confidence and the money to hire us), we 
    >had to keep saying to each other in our group "shhhh....
    >don't tell anyone we play jazz" spite of themselves,
    >we got them hits anyway.
    Thanks for the perspective Carol. This only feeds my 
    reasoning behind all this "fake" music I listen to these 
    days. If the "real thing" was faked to the degree you say 
    (and I absolutely believe every word you say) then it is 
    the real fake music. That makes the fake music I am into 
    (e.g. Johnny Mann Singers doing "Roses And Rainbows Are You") 
    all the more real than what I thought was real but was 
    fooled by the "real" jazz players. Because they (the 
    alleged fakers) weren't really faking it, that's really 
    what they did, semi-soft versions of "real" harder rockin'
    things. Although the players for Johnny Mann probably 
    played for The Byrds as well. But that makes the jazz 
    players fakers too and perhaps in part has earned them the
    "jazzbo" label in some circles. After all if it isn't "out"
    and improvised, then its too structured and "pop", which is
    fake and designed for those oh-so ignorant consumers of 
    that pop we play for hire, rather than playing "real" jazz.
    Or something like that....
    Jimmy Botticelli 
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Byrds
    Date:        Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:26:32
    From:        Javed Jafri
    To:          Spectropop!
     Carol Kaye wrote:
    > The Byrds had their studio musicians too do their things 
    > too, altho' evidently Roger did play some elec. 12-string 
    > on his stuff, yet he had the very conventional Dennis 
    > Budimer do some of that too.....Dennis always brought his 
    > lunch to work, still is a stick-in-the-mud but a helluva 
    > great great jazz guitarist too....he made more money than 
    > Tommy Tedesco doing studio work.
    I thought that the Byrds played on most of their first
    album as well as subsequent recordings. The commonly held
    belief is that Roger was the only group member to play on
    Mr. Tambourine Man but that does not apply as far as
    their other recorded output is concerned. They used
    outside musicians (i.e.Van Dyke Parks, High Masekela)
    even on later recordings but the group members were the
    predominant musicians.
    Javed (still lurking) Jafri
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Teddy Bears Greatest Hits
    Date:        Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:07:27
    From:        Paul Urbahns
    To:          Spectropop!
    Anyone having this on CD please get in touch with me privately.
    Paul Urbahns
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     "Mike Alway's Diary"
    Date:        Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:13:06
    From:        DJ Jimmy B
    To:          Spectropop!
    In a message dated 1/26/0 12:39:31 PM, you wrote:
    >Mike Alway, who in the 80's ran the absolutely fabulous, 
    >utterly excessive and gorgeous El Records label
    Hear Kahimi Karie sing of Mike on "Mike Alway's Diary"
    Its a real nice modern Japanese soft pop thing. Real 6T's
    feel as only the Japanese (with a few notable exceptions)
    seem capable of releasing these days.
    Jimmy Botticelli
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     More....
    Date:        Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:23:26
    From:        Carol Kaye
    To:          Spectropop!
    Elsewhere someone wrote about how the traveling musicians 
    don't get the compliments like studio musicians, that many
    of them could have done the studio work back in the 60s....
    and while I agree with this premise, here's what I wrote 
    in response - tho't you all might be interested in this:
    >>>>It's this very point as to why the general public has
    little or no idea of our contributions and generally fine
    performance values on record dates.  They never come into
    contact with studio musicians.
    Sure, there's many fine musicians out there, and if they
    all wanted to move to LA, work their tails off 12-16
    hours a day, be able to invent lines for ALL styles of
    music, and then later, read 16ths like they were quarter
    notes, without mistakes...and not only that, but put up
    with some weird stuff in the studios...the hours, the
    coffee - eating out of machines, the running from date to
    date, the sometimes put-downs from the rock producers who 
    at times may have felt intimitated at the expertise of the 
    fine musicians.....
    You can't mail your parts have to live there and
    play your best at all times, and this includes creativity 
    (back then, not necessary now I think from what I hear), be
    directly on time (the musician who was late, was liable for
    all costs of overtime per Union rules), but this took years
    of previous experiences in all forms of music, years either
    playing big-band music, jazz and/or latin, etc. including 
    knowing the little-known jazz formats which really are the
    commerical pop formatted arranging of the 60s hits...anyone
    could have done it if they had all these credentials and 
    lived in LA and had a resonable am't of talent, were good 
    people, totally reliable (no drugs, no booze, were on time, 
    played consistently well, and with no lip, and no 
    falling asleep on all the boring dates etc.).
    No, we didn't take "direction", they counted on our
    expertise for that on record dates and most us by 1965
    were in our 30s (some in their 40s) as Perry Botkin and I
    were discussing today over lunch.  (note: Perry arranged
    the fine hit of "Ebb Tide" by the Righteous Bros.)
    Later on in the movie scoring, TV film, yes, working for
    Quincy Jones, Goldsmith, LeGrand, Grusin, Williams, etc.,
    you took very strict direction by the musical conductor
    who expected only the FINEST performance from the elite
    orchestras who worked the film studios, and read every
    note perfect (and yes, on some parts, the rhy. section
    did get to create some parts but mainly, it was cut and
    dried reading) but there was a ton of competition, if you
    started making mistakes you were out totally....never to
    get back in.
    I don't mean to put-down all the fine touring musicians, 
    not at all....yes we all did that in the rugged 50s, been 
    there done that - also did a ton of different combos, 
    big-bands, all kinds of music gigs, 03 -4-5 times a week in 
    addition to the sometimes traveling, and thank God the 
    opportunity arose for musicians to finally make a decent 
    living in the studios, even if it meant anonmity...while 
    traveling musicians rec'd some sort of a name, it was a 
    But the last 20 years have revealed a lot of mistaken
    beliefs have continued on and developed into misleading
    untruths about who cut the rock hits....and sorry, but
    you're wrong...practically every 60s group was cut by
    studio musicians.  
    This fact will come out in the Russ Wapensky credits book
    due out this year, he'll be finishing it very soon he
    said with the next trip research trip out to finish the
    little odds and ends.
    And the recording musicians would be no good on the
    "visual" stage, we sat with motionless expressions (like
    much of the fine 50s jazz musicians did too live) as we
    concentrated on the music we invented a lot on and
    recorded.  The stage requires live visuals, and that's an
    art in itself.
    And we worked every day and made a living out of music
    and are very grateful we could do that...not too many get
    that chance, the discipline is so rigid, plus the coming
    together of so many talents and start of the rock era.  
    So many young men who really didn't have much experience
    playing got stars in their eyes during the late 60s and
    70s, moved to LA, sort of tho't they could just "hop
    right into studio work" as if it was a "who you know"
    type of proposition...and they're still sore years later
    that they "didn't get the chances like others" in their
    own perceptions of what happened that they didn't get "in"
    - yet they went out and made more money over-all then we
    did in their day-jobs later as a rule!
    None of us had "star-itis" when we did studio work (I
    never wanted to do studio work to start with for one,
    others were like me but we had families to take care of
    and then it got interesting, a challenge to make a hit
    record "happen", very different to how musicians perceive
    what it's like to do studio work....
    We were happy to be playing music day and night every day
    of the week, and you get very good at what you do playing
    that much every takes literally years to get
    the concepts that we had to do the challenging job at
    creating fine-selling good-music recordings (something we
    could use more of today I think), no matter the style for
    What they fail to realize is that it takes years of
    experience before you ever get the chance to do studio
    And while many fine musicians from all over, like Biddy
    Bastien, fine bassist in Minneapolis, uncle of the great
    Jim Hughart - have seen many a fine musician out there
    who could have done it, would have fit right in (and we
    HELPED many fit right in too, yours truly got many a
    deserving studio musician started who later went on to be
    first call), but you had to live here, play your tail off,
    get noticed, and then it's up to you to fulfill what they
    expected of you.  
    The tapes don't lie as we used to say.....there were some
    politics with trombone and string players, I'm sure, but
    not with the rhythm sections which were the backbone of
    the hits.
    Wynton Marsalis' father came out here even to try, saw
    the business thing, the rock and roll and moved right
    back to New Orleans, can't say I don't blame him.  He's
    more famous now than any of us (if fame is the thing
    anyone is after, I don't think Mr. Marsalis was after
    that but chose a more saner life-style) to the general
    public, and did well in New Orleans....there's something
    to be said for staying in your own back yard, away from
    the maddening pace of LA and doing your own thing. 
    I've said in the last 20 years or so to aspiring studio
    musicians "stay home", it stopped happening years ago and
    the competition is so rough right now, you'd have to be a
    genius player to "make it" for the few recording things
    there are here.  Some do, but only a few lucky ones. And
    there's more to do with politics now too, altho' playing
    great still pays off.
    Carol Kaye
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

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