http://www.spectropop.com __________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________ __________ __________ __________ S P E C T R O P O P __________ __________ __________ __________________________________________________________ Volume #0379 January 28, 2000 __________________________________________________________ Here's the beat and the feel of today's young music Subject: Cookies and company Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 01:21:10 From: Brian Ferrari To: Spectropop! -- Hello all; I am usually several digests behind in my Spectropop reading - this keeps me from posting, as my questions and comments are usually expressed by other listmembers. You are such a knowledgeable bunch. I feel like a student among you. Here are a few thoughts I wanted to share: RE: Soft Pop - has anyone else noticed that Gary Troxel of the Fleetwoods has been getting considerable press coverage lately? He and his wife are trying to gain visitation rights to their grandchild. Their son has passed away, his wife has remarried and is not allowing them to visit the grandchild as much as they would like. I believe this case has gone to the Supreme Court. It has raised many questions regarding the rights of grandparents. This was the lead story on NBC Nightly News recently. I have also read several articles on the case. None of them mention Gary's notoriety in The Fleetwoods, but he is instantly recognizable: that same boyish face is still there. RE: The South Bank show featuring Cher - these often air on the Bravo cable station. I would imagine that this episode will surface here in the US. RE: Fictitious group names - Excluding singer/songwriters such as Ellie Greenwich, the winner in this category has to be The Cookies. It amazes me how many different group names they had songs released under. I am always discovering (thanks to the liner notes on many UK compilations) different groups that were actually The Cookies: The Cinderellas ("Baby Baby I Still Love You", "Please Don't Wake Me", "Good Good Lovin") The Honeybees ("One Wonderful Night", "She Don't Deserve Him", "Some Of Your Lovin") Bach's Lunch ("Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow") The Cupcakes ("The Pied Piper") The Palisades ("Make The Night A Little Longer") I am also pretty sure that they were The Emeralds ("I Wanna Make Him Mine", "Did You Ever Love A Guy", "Dancing Alone"). Anyone else know of groups that were actually The Cookies? Any additions to this list would be helpful. I would also love to know anything about The Cookies. Earl-Jean McCrea is pretty easy to identify on record. Different sources site either Margaret Ross or Dorothy Jones as the belty lead singer of numbers like "I Never Dreamed" and many of the above named recordings. Can anyone give any backround into this amazing group? What happened to them after the 60's heyday? One of my favorite all-time girl group records is their 1967 Warner Brothers single "Wounded". Anyone know if they recorded other sides at Warner Brothers? Thanks! Brian Ferrari --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Hello everybody Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:29:44 From: claudia To: Spectropop! -- I am looking for a copy of the cd box set THE BRILL BUILDING SOUND: SINGERS & SONGWRITERS WHO ROCKED THE 60'S. I will pay you well for it. Thank you --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: marketing and studio musicians Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:08:28 From: Nat Kone To: Spectropop! -- >Subject: Very true >From: Carol Kaye >You should have seen the ages of the studio musicians who >played on all the rock and roll hit records we put out in >the 60s LA recording scene. >Some of the record co's in the mid 60s tried to record >with their own artists' road groups, thinking they could >save the studio musicians' fees >Well, that lasted a few short weeks, they humbly begged us >to come back to work for them, They didn't try that again > until the 70s when the groups like Toto (I taught David >Hungate btw, the bassist), some were able to play their own >music well. > >It's got something to do with marketing alright. Do you >think the Beach Boys would have sold as well if the public >knew (back then) who really played on their recordings? Okay look. I do remember having my little teenage heart broken when I found out about who actually played on some of my favorite records. Or more to the point, who didn't play on the records. And I'm sure I could still be surprised - and heartbroken - to hear about other records which, to this day, I still assume were recorded by the actual group. Like Paul Revere and the Raiders. I wouldn't want to find out that Drake Levin and Smitty didn't play on any of those records. Or that Zal Yanovsky didn't play on the Lovin' Spoonful records. And there's also enough teenager still in me to find it incredibly cool that there's someone on this list who played on so many of my favourite records. BUT I loved the Byrds when I first heard them because it was a beautiful, exciting (new) sound. I loved them before I knew what their names were or what they looked like. And I don't much care who decided that they would record a Dylan song or that they would try to impose electric instruments on folk songs or folk harmonies. I'd still like to think that McGuinn and Clark had something to do with finding that sound but I didn't love the record just because I thought it was a bunch of drug-taking hippies who made it. I loved it because it wasn't Fabian. I was like ten years old. Everyone was older than me. I didn't know that some of them weren't that much older than me. I'm not sure how much I would have cared to find out that some of the musicians were in their early thirties rather than in their early twenties. I think it's really cool that Ms. Kaye played on Mel Torme's "rock" records, which I (now) have and love. But it's just plain silly to claim that it was marketing that made me love Donovan's "Sunshine Superman" album and prefer it to Mel's hipster cover of the title tune. I'm not going to claim purity for Donovan and utter crass commercialism for Mel. (Though on a side note, I'm still amazed to hear that Mel apparently distanced himself from his great Claus Ogerman produced "I'm Coming Home baby" LP) But there's a difference between the two of them. And marketing and image don't cover it. I don't know who actually played on Donovan's album - and I loved the whole album, still do - but I have to believe that somewhere in the process, there was a musician trying to find a sound, trying to express himself. And I think that came through to me as a kid. And if I even heard Mel's cover at the time and if I tossed it on the heap with all the other similar "attempts", it wasn't just the failure of Mel's marketing machine. Or my youthful gullibility. And one more thing. If marketing to the youth market was so effective, how come we laughed at so many of their attempts? (Of course, we who laughed then became the marketers and we did learn from their mistakes.) Nat --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: It's not all marketing Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:04:30 From: "Joseph Scott" To: Spectropop!> -- Hi Nat, I think you and I are on the same page about this stuff. You said: "I can listen to Andy Williams singing 'God Only Knows' and love it because he has a beautiful voice, it's a nice arrangement and it's a great song. What's not to like?" ALRIGHT! Exactly, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I didn't say it's all marketing. I said some people have talent and some don't, and the *rest* is marketing. Totally apart from marketing, some music is great and some is poor, no doubt about that. Re the intentions of the performers, I think intentions can be very interesting to go research in their own right, but I don't think there's much correspondence at all between "pure" intentions (or whatever you want to call it) and great product, e.g., Gabor Szabo and Eric Burdon had very genuine commitments to the Summer Of Love and its associated notions, much more so than some of the other artists who made Summer Of Lovish stuff, but I don't think that in of itself can or did make their music better than the other artists'. Or, to look at it from another of the many possible angles, often the studio musicians were doing their own thing anyway -- Carol Kaye played bass in exactly the same funky fast style on Mel Torme's "Games People Play" that she did on the Four Tops' "Eleanor Rigby"; Howard Roberts' amazing guitar solos for the Electric Prunes c. '68 were in the exact same style as his for David Axelrod; Tommy Tedesco played exactly the same in places with Zappa as with Simon and Garfunkel, etc. (Digression -- cool comparison: Carol Kaye on bass on the Four Tops' "Reach Out I'll Be There" and on S&G's "Scarborough Fair." Isolate the one track with the electric bass in the stereo mix of "Scarborough" and you can especially hear the similarity. E.g. listen to Carol's last bit, near the end of "Scarborough," and then "Reach Out." Both recorded in L.A. in '66.) To whatever extent the studio musicians are doing their own thing, again the *intentions* of the singers are not too relevant to how good the record sounds. Supposing Donovan's "Sunshine Superman" is better than Mel's (which as Carol points out is subjective anyway), then there's some reason for that, but I'm not at all sure it's the matter of who wrote it. Billie Holiday, Elvis Presley, Roger Daltrey, and Anita Kerr, e.g., all do it for me singing other people's songs. Carol, thanks for your comments, and thanks for being Carol Kaye! :-) Can you tell us more about Dennis Budimir? He seems to have played on everything, every style. Best, Joseph Scott --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Prim schoolteacher??????? Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:32:27 From: Jamie LePage To: Spectropop! Carol wrote: > You should have seen the conventional clothing we all > wore, the butch haircuts, and I looked like a prim > school-teacher (and still do), etc. Nope. Uh-uh. No way. Check out these two photos, people: http://www.carolkaye.com/images/ckayek04.jpg http://www.carolkaye.com/images/shades.jpg No schoolteacher of mine was ever THAT groovy. Dig those shades! And the boots! Hipper than hip! Seeing these record date photos of the session players and listening to session tapes with the off mic exchanges between takes help me to form a mental picture of what it must have been like to record in those days. Fascinating, and it makes the records all the more interesting to listen to. Besides, ultimately, the grooviest way to dress IS in conventional clothing. It works. It always has. It always will. I bet none of you session musicians ever got booted out of Martoni's for being inappropriately dressed! (not- so-subtle Sonny Bono reference here). And while I am gushing here about your photos and all, just let me add thanks once again for sharing your comments with us here, Carol. Jamie "chinos and oxfords rule!" LePage --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: designed for ignorant consumers of pop Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:10:32 From: DJ Jimmy B To: Spectropop! -- In a message dated 1/26/0 12:39:31 PM, you wrote: >You should have seen the ages of the studio musicians who >played on all the rock and roll hit records we put out in >the 60s LA recording scene. And the fact that a great deal >of them were fine jazz musicians, and the rest mostly >big-band musicians, hardly a rocker on those recordings. > >And around the younger newer bunch of producers (who we >quickly surmised didn't know much about producing actually >but they had the confidence and the money to hire us), we >had to keep saying to each other in our group "shhhh.... >don't tell anyone we play jazz"....in spite of themselves, >we got them hits anyway. Thanks for the perspective Carol. This only feeds my reasoning behind all this "fake" music I listen to these days. If the "real thing" was faked to the degree you say (and I absolutely believe every word you say) then it is the real fake music. That makes the fake music I am into (e.g. Johnny Mann Singers doing "Roses And Rainbows Are You") all the more real than what I thought was real but was fooled by the "real" jazz players. Because they (the alleged fakers) weren't really faking it, that's really what they did, semi-soft versions of "real" harder rockin' things. Although the players for Johnny Mann probably played for The Byrds as well. But that makes the jazz players fakers too and perhaps in part has earned them the "jazzbo" label in some circles. After all if it isn't "out" and improvised, then its too structured and "pop", which is fake and designed for those oh-so ignorant consumers of that pop we play for hire, rather than playing "real" jazz. Or something like that.... Jimmy Botticelli --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Byrds Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:26:32 From: Javed Jafri To: Spectropop! -- Carol Kaye wrote: > The Byrds had their studio musicians too do their things > too, altho' evidently Roger did play some elec. 12-string > on his stuff, yet he had the very conventional Dennis > Budimer do some of that too.....Dennis always brought his > lunch to work, still is a stick-in-the-mud but a helluva > great great jazz guitarist too....he made more money than > Tommy Tedesco doing studio work. Carol, I thought that the Byrds played on most of their first album as well as subsequent recordings. The commonly held belief is that Roger was the only group member to play on Mr. Tambourine Man but that does not apply as far as their other recorded output is concerned. They used outside musicians (i.e.Van Dyke Parks, High Masekela) even on later recordings but the group members were the predominant musicians. Javed (still lurking) Jafri --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Teddy Bears Greatest Hits Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:07:27 From: Paul Urbahns To: Spectropop! -- Anyone having this on CD please get in touch with me privately. Paul Urbahns --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: "Mike Alway's Diary" Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:13:06 From: DJ Jimmy B To: Spectropop! -- In a message dated 1/26/0 12:39:31 PM, you wrote: >Mike Alway, who in the 80's ran the absolutely fabulous, >utterly excessive and gorgeous El Records label Hear Kahimi Karie sing of Mike on "Mike Alway's Diary" Its a real nice modern Japanese soft pop thing. Real 6T's feel as only the Japanese (with a few notable exceptions) seem capable of releasing these days. Jimmy Botticelli --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: More.... Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:23:26 From: Carol Kaye To: Spectropop! -- Elsewhere someone wrote about how the traveling musicians don't get the compliments like studio musicians, that many of them could have done the studio work back in the 60s.... and while I agree with this premise, here's what I wrote in response - tho't you all might be interested in this: >>>>It's this very point as to why the general public has little or no idea of our contributions and generally fine performance values on record dates. They never come into contact with studio musicians. Sure, there's many fine musicians out there, and if they all wanted to move to LA, work their tails off 12-16 hours a day, be able to invent lines for ALL styles of music, and then later, read 16ths like they were quarter notes, without mistakes...and not only that, but put up with some weird stuff in the studios...the hours, the coffee - eating out of machines, the running from date to date, the sometimes put-downs from the rock producers who at times may have felt intimitated at the expertise of the fine musicians..... You can't mail your parts in....you have to live there and play your best at all times, and this includes creativity (back then, not necessary now I think from what I hear), be directly on time (the musician who was late, was liable for all costs of overtime per Union rules), but this took years of previous experiences in all forms of music, years either playing big-band music, jazz and/or latin, etc. including knowing the little-known jazz formats which really are the commerical pop formatted arranging of the 60s hits...anyone could have done it if they had all these credentials and lived in LA and had a resonable am't of talent, were good people, totally reliable (no drugs, no booze, were on time, played consistently well, and with no lip, and no falling asleep on all the boring dates etc.). No, we didn't take "direction", they counted on our expertise for that on record dates and most us by 1965 were in our 30s (some in their 40s) as Perry Botkin and I were discussing today over lunch. (note: Perry arranged the fine hit of "Ebb Tide" by the Righteous Bros.) Later on in the movie scoring, TV film, yes, working for Quincy Jones, Goldsmith, LeGrand, Grusin, Williams, etc., you took very strict direction by the musical conductor who expected only the FINEST performance from the elite orchestras who worked the film studios, and read every note perfect (and yes, on some parts, the rhy. section did get to create some parts but mainly, it was cut and dried reading) but there was a ton of competition, if you started making mistakes you were out totally....never to get back in. I don't mean to put-down all the fine touring musicians, not at all....yes we all did that in the rugged 50s, been there done that - also did a ton of different combos, big-bands, all kinds of music gigs, 03 -4-5 times a week in addition to the sometimes traveling, and thank God the opportunity arose for musicians to finally make a decent living in the studios, even if it meant anonmity...while traveling musicians rec'd some sort of a name, it was a trade-off. But the last 20 years have revealed a lot of mistaken beliefs have continued on and developed into misleading untruths about who cut the rock hits....and sorry, but you're wrong...practically every 60s group was cut by studio musicians. This fact will come out in the Russ Wapensky credits book due out this year, he'll be finishing it very soon he said with the next trip research trip out to finish the little odds and ends. And the recording musicians would be no good on the "visual" stage, we sat with motionless expressions (like much of the fine 50s jazz musicians did too live) as we concentrated on the music we invented a lot on and recorded. The stage requires live visuals, and that's an art in itself. And we worked every day and made a living out of music and are very grateful we could do that...not too many get that chance, the discipline is so rigid, plus the coming together of so many talents and start of the rock era. So many young men who really didn't have much experience playing got stars in their eyes during the late 60s and 70s, moved to LA, sort of tho't they could just "hop right into studio work" as if it was a "who you know" type of proposition...and they're still sore years later that they "didn't get the chances like others" in their own perceptions of what happened that they didn't get "in" - yet they went out and made more money over-all then we did in their day-jobs later as a rule! None of us had "star-itis" when we did studio work (I never wanted to do studio work to start with for one, others were like me but we had families to take care of and then it got interesting, a challenge to make a hit record "happen", very different to how musicians perceive what it's like to do studio work.... We were happy to be playing music day and night every day of the week, and you get very good at what you do playing that much every day....it takes literally years to get the concepts that we had to do the challenging job at creating fine-selling good-music recordings (something we could use more of today I think), no matter the style for everyone. What they fail to realize is that it takes years of experience before you ever get the chance to do studio work. And while many fine musicians from all over, like Biddy Bastien, fine bassist in Minneapolis, uncle of the great Jim Hughart - have seen many a fine musician out there who could have done it, would have fit right in (and we HELPED many fit right in too, yours truly got many a deserving studio musician started who later went on to be first call), but you had to live here, play your tail off, get noticed, and then it's up to you to fulfill what they expected of you. The tapes don't lie as we used to say.....there were some politics with trombone and string players, I'm sure, but not with the rhythm sections which were the backbone of the hits. Wynton Marsalis' father came out here even to try, saw the business thing, the rock and roll and moved right back to New Orleans, can't say I don't blame him. He's more famous now than any of us (if fame is the thing anyone is after, I don't think Mr. Marsalis was after that but chose a more saner life-style) to the general public, and did well in New Orleans....there's something to be said for staying in your own back yard, away from the maddening pace of LA and doing your own thing. I've said in the last 20 years or so to aspiring studio musicians "stay home", it stopped happening years ago and the competition is so rough right now, you'd have to be a genius player to "make it" for the few recording things there are here. Some do, but only a few lucky ones. And there's more to do with politics now too, altho' playing great still pays off. Carol Kaye http://www.carolkaye.com/ --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- End
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