__________________________________________________________ __________ __________ __________ __________ __________ S P E C T R O P O P __________ __________ __________ __________________________________________________________ Volume #0359 December 20, 1999 __________________________________________________________ Produced in accordance with the most demanding standardsSubject: Stereo Christmas Received: 12/20/99 9:10 am From: JAMESxxxxxcom To: spectxxxxxities.com How can i obtain phil spector christmas cd in stereo they only have mono version --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Goffin/King collection Received: 12/19/99 11:09 am From: The Heavy Blinkers, heavyblixxxxxo.com To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Hi there! I'm new to the list and I have a question that I know you spectorophiles out there can answer for me: Does there exist and where can one purchase a Goffin/King box set (or simply a collection) covering material that was given to other artists? Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. thanks guys Jason --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Nick Martinis Received: 12/18/99 9:31 am From: Carol Kaye, caroxxxxxhlink.net To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com >Carol, what do you know about a drummer named Nick >Martinis. His name shows up on a few PET SOUNDS and >SMILE-era Beach Boys session sheets, but I've never heard >of him otherwise. Was he another occasional player like >Richie Frost? Nick is a fine jazz drummer who like a few others for a little while, started doing some occasional record dates... but he (like others) didn't invest into getting a rock-drum setup, plus he didn't take the time to really get his rock chops together. He kept on playing his jazz live and has been with the Pete Jolly Trio (usually with Chuck Berghofer string bass if he's not busy) for years now, has cut many CDs with Pete & other jazz artists in LA. He's a great scat singer too, but I think he's just happy playing drums nowadays. Earl Palmer, John Guerin, Paul Humphrey, and practically all were fine jazz drummers, but they made the switch, got their rock drums sets together (totally different heads, setups etc. than the finer jazz styles of music). Even Hal Blaine played some fine jazz gigs but he didn't get the total jazz experience he needed to get a "name in jazz" as his studio work started to take off, etc. - Hal did do some nice big band jazz stuff, and I've played some good jazz gigs with him with H.B. Barnum, so I know he was very capable of playing fine jazz drums. Such is the influence on the grooves of all those rock recordings of the 60s...mainly from experienced jazz rhythm sections. As far as Richie Frost is concerned, he was very busy here and there for a few short years (is not a jazz drummer but a pretty fair groove drummer) but like jazz drummer Jack Sperling & other drummers of that period, his work dwindled pretty fast at one point I remember and thereafter he moved out of LA up to Oregon. He did more session work than Nick ever did. People still have little idea of all the creativeness of the totally-experienced studio musicians on all those dates. Brian was the ONLY one who had semi-charts, parts for some instruments were totally written out while other charts were just chord-charts. If people stop to think of the background of musicians in those days: HARD bebop jazz, the GREAT big-band era of the 40s and 50s which produced the finest musicians in the world, years and years of combo work in nightclubs, and the all-important MULTI-CHORDS of all the HUNDREDS of STANDARDS we all had to not only play and read, but INVENT on BEFORE any of us did studio work....that experience is NOT AVAILABLE at all today....sure many will play in copy-cat "big-bands" but it's like eating a piece of cake these days, nothing to develop musicians' creativity at all like it was back in those days. Those musicians were the STUDIO MUSICIANS of the 60s, hardened by years of playing, on the road, playing tough music that when I teach it today, pro-students WILT fast, they had no idea the music we played was that "HARD". There's a reason why you don't hear the musicianship today like who played in the great Artie Shaw, Goodman, Ellington, Basie bands of yesteryear. That's who you hear on all the 60s hits. Carol Kaye http://www.carolkaye.com/ --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Re: Only Hal Blaine on drums Received: 12/19/99 11:09 am From: Brad Elliott, suxxxxxonline.net To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Carol Kaye wrote: > Richie did NOT play drums on any Brian Wilson date at all > - only Hal Blaine on drums. Jeez, I really hate to be put in the position of disputing Carol Kaye, but in this instance, I'm afraid she's wrong. The AFM contract for the Nov. 17, 1965 date clearly lists Donald R. (Ritchie) Frost as playing, with no other drummers present. You can view this for yourself at http://www.surfsupcollectibles.com/images/runjames.jpg. He's the third musician listed. Carol is, by the way, the ninth name on the contract. (And, for anybody who might be concerned, I did obscure the Social Security numbers of the musicians.) > On the musicians contracts, they sometimes made mistakes > with the instrumentation, something that Russ Wapensky has > cleared up with tons of interviews with us studio musicians > /arrangers etc. > > [snip] > > He's the ONLY one we musicians/arrangers/composers and the > Musicians' Union people et al trust in this endeavor, a > responsible non-ego dogmatic documenter who cares about our > credits and is not out for himself at all. He wants to get > it right and that's why he's taking extra time > meticulously. Well, if you check the sessionography in the PET SOUNDS SESSIONS booklet, which "was compiled using research generously supplied by music historian Russ Wapensky," you'll see that he too credits Frost with drums on "Pet Sounds" (AKA "Run James Run"). If Russ now disputes that, I'd be interested in learning why. Surf's up! Brad --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Re: Cher / Four Seasons MONO Received: 12/19/99 11:09 am From: Billy G. Spradlin, bgsprxxxxxhlink.net To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Sheila Burgel, pxxxxxrport.net wrote: >Any Cher 45's that I MUST purchase? Is there a quality CD >compilation available? I recommend getting the EMI two-fer of her first two albums on Imperial: "All I Want To Do"/"The Sonny Side of Cher". I don't know if its still in print. The CD says it's remixed from the original 3 track tapes, but it sounds to me like the compilers used the same stereo 2- Track LP mixdown masters on most songs. These two albums were made when Sonny was still infatuated with the "Wall of Sound" production technique and recorded at Gold Star. I like his take on it, its very unique sounding because he infused 65-66 Folk-Rock elements like jangling 12-String Rickenbackers and tambourines into the mix. Both albums have several great songs (My Favorite: Where Do You Go) but also have a few clumsy sounding mid 60's covers. If you see the CD, grab it. Her later Imperial albums start heading toward Middle of the Road. There are many Cher "Hits" collections available but I usually stay away from her Kapp/MCA (further into schlockland though some fans really love this period) Casablanca (disco, and that dreadful album with Dwayne Allman), and Geffen (her Madonna-like facelift) recordings. On the subject of Four Seasons MONO, I wrote: > >>I would love to see ACE or Rhino put together a Mono-Only >>compilation of the Seasons hits, because in many cases >>they sound much better than the stereo LP mixes. I guess >>theres no real market for it since there's many Seasons >>hits collections available. To which Paul Urbahns replied: > >Rhino has gotten mono mania lately so just mention it to >them. They even call their Cds Rhino-fonic sound which I >will not purchase; I haven't bought a Rhino CD since I got >burned on a Booker T hits set which was almost 100 percent >mono. I have no problem with people issuing mono CDs but I >wish companies would be honest and mark them as such. I wish more re-issue companies would list tracks as stereo or mono. Most companies such as Rhino would do that back in the 80's and also mention if the song was remixed, but for some weird reason they don't do that anymore. I guess Rhino's figured that "The Mono Mix is the Definitive Mix"...maybe that's true for singles but not for LP tracks. I thought it was very weird when Rhino tossed in a stereo version of the Gestures' "Run Run Run" right in the middle of a almost all-mono CD on the Nuggets box set! I'm only 38. I grew up listening to FM Oldies radio and collecting CD and LP reissues where they would use the stereo mix, so many mono mixes of classic hits that I have heard for years sound very different to me! Now and then they surprise me. It seems to me like many 60's hits were super-compressed for radio in the mono mix, while the stereo mix is flatter sounding and sometimes drastically sounds different from the "hit". Some elements in the mix (vocals/backing track/ extra instrumentation) are buried while other elements are mixed up front or even added on many single versions. I don't want to get into another stereo/mono debate; I just bought the Smokey Robinson & The Miracles 35th anniversary box set (after seeing it on sale for $25!) and it's almost all mono for all the 60's material, but since companies like Motown usually spent more time on the mono mixes for radio and left the stereo mix to be done quickly by an "assistant engineer", I feel like the compilers made the right decision for using the mono mixes. If I ever find a email address for Rhino I will mention it to them. Billy G. Spradlin 29 Rim Road Kilgore, Texas 75662 E-mail: bgsprxxxxxhlink.net Homepage: http://home.earthlink.net/~bgspradlin/ --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Re: "must have" Cher Received: 12/19/99 11:09 am From: Claudia C., xxxxxv.net To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com To Sheila regarding "must have" Cher records: For me, Sonny and Cher bring back the best year of my life, 1965. There was nothing like it musically. While I really love all their early stuff, I must recommend Cher's rendition of Bob Dylan's "All I Really Want to Do" in which Cher - sounding like the teenager she was - gives a convincing performance as a girl not really interested in the attentions of some would-be suitor and opines that "All I really want to do, baby, is be friends with you". The lyrics are great - One can picture our Cher kind of looking down, picking at her fingernails, bored to tears (shades of the old Sonny and Cher show during their opening monologue, as Sonny is lecturing Cher on some subject) as the guy is groveling before her. Perhaps she is yawning, too? "I don't want to meet your kin, make you spin or do you in", she continues...."All I really want to do (yawn) ... is be friends with you". >From the first note, which grabs your interest immediately, to the last fade out, you're hooked. The sound of of the song invokes all those incredibly great images of 1965, totally indescribable if you weren't there ....and one can picture Sonny, standing in the wings, applauding Cher for a job well done. Sheila-----buy the record!! Claudia --------------------------------------- Quote of the week: "Making a comeback is one of the most difficult things to do with dignity" Greg Lake of Emerson, Lake and Palmer --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: I'll Never Need More Than This Received: 12/19/99 11:09 am From: Jamie LePage, le_pagxxxxxities.com To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Jake Tassell wrote: >Does anyone out there know why I've got two completely >different sounding mixes of I and T.T.'s 'I'll Never Need >More Than This'? I don't know if this is will answer your question, Jake, but could it be the most obvious answer? That is, the difference between the original Philles mix in mono and the more familiar stereo mix which appears on the A&M I&TT album River Deep, Mountain High? The mixes are radically different. The mono mix is very, very muddy. One has to strain to hear any definition on the strings. The stereo mix, however, is much clearer; the strings (and percussion) are far more prominent. Which is better? Subjective, really. Technically speaking, I suppose the stereo mix is cleaner, but the mono mix has great appeal in its own way. For some reason, the single mix might be viewed as the last Spector recording to embody (without a hint of irony) elements of both Brill writing and New York pop record production (despite the fact it was LA, Gold Star and all the regulars). The stereo album mix, sadly in a way, points towards a more defined, modern approach (remixed by Larry at the new A&M studios? Anyone know?). I have never heard the Philles pressing of River Deep, Mountain High, but I assume the mix on "I'll Never Need More Than This" is the same mono mix as Philles 135. Any lucky person here actually own this extremely rare album that can confirm? In any event, Jake, please tell us how the two versions differ or at least let us know the source of the recordings (e.g. cat #). It would be fantastic to find an alternative mix to this peak-era Spector master. Jamie --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Separating The Goths From The Brits Received: 12/19/99 11:09 am From: jake tassell, xwsf.taxxxxxin.net To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Dear Spectropop Thinking of Andrew Loog Oldham, Francoise Hardy, Charles Blackwell (btw, I think there is probably no relation there, Carol) all getting a mention on the Spectropop List lately - and even Michel Polnareff! turning up on The Liquid Room's playlist, has made me think a lot about The Spector influence on the English and Continental-European production styles of that time. It seems interesting to me how when that influence initially hit England, what a dogs dinner was made of it (a la - early British rock n roll - tres diabolique) but they did find an interesting solution to the problem. It's clear in hindsight that, for some reason (we didn't have Gold Star!), the style couldn't be mastered on it's own terms (although Dusty Springfield's 'Stay Awhile' is a pretty convincing reverbstormer) so it had to, in a sense 'go native' before it could work properly. Paradoxically enough it was the influence of another American; - Burt Bacharach, that helped create a more 'mature' (advisable commas) 'Europeanised' take on the Wall of Sound thing - which again became something else entirely. At that time purveyors of this sound would also put out versions of their hit songs sung in French, Italian and Spanish, and augment their material with either ersatz Burt songs or material gleaned from Continental European song festivals. All the British versions of those great Bacharach/David songs:- Sandie Shaw, Cilla Black, Dusty Springfield, The Walker Brothers (Yeah I know The Walkers were Yanks - but they were over here draft-dodging, and Scott was the biggest Francophile this side of the Maginot Line) - you hear it - The European Wall of Sound - more damp and gothic sounding than Phils' finest - and a little less frenetic, but it's the Wall of Sound nevertheless. If you listen to the American originals of those songs, T.W.O.S. is nowhere to be found, it's pretty minimalist:- a piano, somebody playing the brushes, solo trumpet, girl singers etc. The Europa Fetish that oozed from the aforementioned British W.O.S. records was a fairly shortlived phenomenon that coincided with, and can possibly be linked to the, at that time, new availability of cheap continental holidays for working-class teenagers (as can large components of the British 'mod' look of the '60's). Musically speaking this stream began with the influence of The Crystals and Ronettes, gained fruition with Petula, Sandie and Dusty, got ravingly power-drunk on Barry Ryan's 'Eloise', and reached it's logical Spectorial point of intense destiny kicking and screaming into a botttomless abyss on the recordings that make up 'Scott Walker Sings Jacques Brel'. The British ignorance of any Continental-European tradition in pop music before or since reflects fairly well the complete lack of identification with its geographical proximity. This is partly a cultural divide, but also simply to do with language difference. Since the channel-tunnel opened you can now get to Paris from London quicker than you can get to Liverpool or Manchester;- but hardly anyone in England has heard of Francoise Hardy, Serge Gainsbourg, France Gall etc. and apart from the aforementioned artists, my knowledge of sixties continental pop is fairly limited too. Any of you Spectros got any good recommendations? Regards Jake Tassell --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: About arrangers Received: 12/19/99 11:09 am From: Carol Kaye, caroxxxxxhlink.net To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com When I wrote about Brian was the "only one" doing most of his writing of arrangements, I hope that everyone got it, that I meant about the young rock groups doing their own producing, etc. He was the only one (outside of Frank Zappa, who I consider a more-trained musician/composer/ arranger and who used 2-3 of his band along with our guitar group of studio musicians) who did his own arranging, brought in note-written parts (not just chord change sheets). Our group of tough experienced fine musicians from the jazz and big-band fields of those great breeding grounds of tons of tunes with tons of chordal changes (not like the later rock bands that didn't have nearly the chords that we grew up with) were the group of studio musicians in the 60s who cut the rock and roll record hits from LA. Ray Pohlman, who was the elec. bassist starting about 1955 -56, quickly became "the" elec. bassist about '57-'58 and was playing elec. bass on 75-90% of those recordings all the time....but they used other adjunct bassists too, string bass players (at least a string bass and elec. bass on almost every date) and even sometimes a bass-guitarist too (Dano click bass guitar, 06 -string instrument, tuned like a guitar but down 1 octave) making it 3 basses on a date. And yes, they did have some arrangers....but they wrote mostly chord charts, and we'd have to create our own arrangements from them (head arrangements they were called ...spontaneous from all of us playing live together). Jack Nitzsche (I never could spell his name right) was the gofer person for H.B. Barnum and his copyist and he got into arranging for Phil and a few others in the early 60s. ....his wife was Gracia, beautiful petit woman, great background studio singer (high voice), nice person. Jack and Gracia even went fishing with my 2nd husband and me on our cabin cruiser boat one time (about 1962) and Jack gaffed a big shark (about 2-3 miles off of Zuma Beach. We got chumming the waters for the smaller blue sharks and it attracted a huge big school of bigger and bigger blue sharks -- one so big that Gracia was hooked up to (we had 10 lb. test lines and had to be careful not to break the lines) that was almost as long as our 28' foot boat, it was fun for awhile. We finally caught (wore them out actually) three 8-foot blue sharks that day which was the talk of the Paradise Cove pier, the meat was white too, like swordtail. One of those biggies was so tame right next to the boat that Jack reached over and gaffed it, and the gaff broke off in the head of the shark and it swam away with the gaff-head stuck in its head....that's the only time I ever saw Jack get really nervous. We were laughing, eating my home-made cake, chicken and drinking beer. H. B. Barnum and his sister, studio singer Billie were on the boat too. I've heard some stories about Jack after I stopped working for him (had gone on to work for Quincy Jones, Michel LeGrand, Walter Scharf, others) but when I bumped into him in an elevator, mid-80s, on the way to my attny (he was doing the same thing in Century City), we connected and talked - it had been over 15 years - but it was like it was just yesterday, the same ol' Jack, seemed really nice like he was back then. Perry Botkin was another arranger who really quickly got the rock and pop styles of music together in his writings, a quintessential wonderfully talented good guy....but he, like the rest, wanted us to still donate some creativity, like we always did. Our group of studio musicians played hard too....we liked to, plus we knew if we did, whatever tunes and singers we were playing for would insure being a hit recording and/or sell really well, insuring us to work for that "account" (as we called each artist/producer/arranger back then) for the following year)....thus, keeping the "business going"... Also, we knew the jive things back then...the fact that the public was being told one thing in fan magazines, untruths as to "who really played on the records" and who really did, saw some stuff, plus it was the first time in history that rock and roll records were selling like hotcakes and mostly jazz and bigband great musicians were not only performing on them but helping to create them, even with the later more-elaborate music arrangements that were being written. No other group of studio musicians have done that since then.....altho' you still have the Milli-Vanilli stuff happening all the time, and younger studio musicians are having to sign contracts to "not tell" etc., they still couldn't do the creating and hard playing we did back then.... By the time I accidently started playing elec. bass in the studios (late 1963) when a bass player didn't show at Capitol, Ray Pohlman was probably doing about 90% of the record dates on Fender Bass and soon he was the musical director of the Shindig TV show which really left a big hole in elec. bass, and I got a ton of work then...and soon they realized that with my hard-pick heavy-playing, plus my boogaloo rhythmic bass line inventing, they didn't need the "other bass", or "other 2 basses", just one bass... and that's how that evolved in 1964-65 altho' several still wanted the "2-bass" record date (Brian, Nancy Sinatra, Phil, and a couple of others) and some like Sonny & Cher still wanted my elec. 12-string double-time fills on their recordings altho' I did play bass on Cher's later recordings in the 60s, same for Phil - he wanted me on guitar on most of his dates at first, then it was bass a little later. BTW, I spoke of being pregnant with Gwyn on Phil's dates. Well, Darlene Love and Fanita were pregnant at the same time too, and we all worked our tails off at Gold Star (about 1963) for Phil. The guys thanked me one time after I played pretty hard on the acoustic 12-string guitar, and told Phil (after about 2 -1/2 hours with no break),"Phil, my kidneys are ready to burst...you HAVE to let us have a bathroom break" and just got up...he did call a break then....Larry Levine had that scared look like he usually did when us pregnant gals walked into the studio (think it was his face was welded with that look). Anyway, that's the story for now in back of those early hits. Carol Kaye http://www.carolkaye.com/ --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Terra launch Received: 12/19/99 11:09 am From: Carol Kaye, caroxxxxxhlink.net To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com I hope you all will know that Terra, this NASA launch, which up to now has been very low-profile, will go around our planet and send data back to NASA about our environment, its health, pollution, etc. from all over the world. My daughter, Gwyn (who early on I named my book publishing co. after in 1969, long story on the name, my other two felt a little left out but are OK now about it) has been working for Goddard for about 13-14 years now and is on this all-important NASA team of data-collectors of this mission. Formerly she was partially responsible for keeping the oldest satellite aloft way past its prime, thereby saving tax payers millions of dollars...news of this sort never seems to get out in the news media. She's a good strong girl and said that was boring, kind of, but she is happy to be on this mission with its heavy work load, etc. (no they don't make a lot of money at NASA fyi but there's a lot of dedication in this work). And what does this have to do with the Spectropop list? I was pregnant with her when I played a lot of dates for Phil Spector for one, playing some tough acoustic 12- string stuff too....was working quite a bit...Gwyn has talent, but she opted to be a "space woman" instead. Will keep you posted, we hope it lifts off tomorrow, it has been postponed a while now. "Terra" will start to send data in in about 2-3 mos. and then it'll take scientists about 2 years of analyzing before the public actually knows something substantial. Something tells me we'll be driving electric cars soon. This mission will affect everyone in our world I think. Carol Kaye http://www.carolkaye.com/ --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- End
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