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Spectropop V#0359

  • From: The Spectropop Group
  • Date: 12/20/99

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       Volume #0359                       December 20, 1999   
     Produced in accordance with the most demanding standards 
    Subject:     Stereo Christmas
    Received:    12/20/99 9:10 am
    From:        JAMESxxxxxcom
    How can i obtain phil spector christmas cd in stereo they 
    only have mono version
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Goffin/King collection
    Received:    12/19/99 11:09 am
    From:        The Heavy Blinkers,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Hi there! I'm new to the list and I have a question
    that I know you spectorophiles out there can answer
    for me: Does there exist and where can one purchase a
    Goffin/King box set (or simply a collection) covering
    material that was given to other artists? Any help
    would be GREATLY appreciated.
                   thanks guys
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Nick Martinis
    Received:    12/18/99 9:31 am
    From:        Carol Kaye,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    >Carol, what do you know about a drummer named Nick 
    >Martinis. His name shows up on a few PET SOUNDS and 
    >SMILE-era Beach Boys session sheets, but I've never heard 
    >of him otherwise. Was he another occasional player like 
    >Richie Frost?
    Nick is a fine jazz drummer who like a few others for a 
    little while, started doing some occasional record dates...
    but he (like others) didn't invest into getting a 
    rock-drum setup, plus he didn't take the time to really get 
    his rock chops together. He kept on playing his jazz live 
    and has been with the Pete Jolly Trio (usually with Chuck 
    Berghofer string bass if he's not busy) for years now, has
    cut many CDs with Pete & other jazz artists in LA. He's a 
    great scat singer too, but I think he's just happy playing 
    drums nowadays.
    Earl Palmer, John Guerin, Paul Humphrey, and practically 
    all were fine jazz drummers, but they made the switch, got 
    their rock drums sets together (totally different heads, 
    setups etc. than the finer jazz styles of music). Even
    Hal Blaine played some fine jazz gigs but he didn't get the 
    total jazz experience he needed to get a "name in jazz" as
    his studio work started to take off, etc. - Hal did do some 
    nice big band jazz stuff, and I've played some good jazz 
    gigs with him with H.B. Barnum, so I know he was very 
    capable of playing fine jazz drums.
    Such is the influence on the grooves of all those rock 
    recordings of the 60s...mainly from experienced jazz rhythm 
    As far as Richie Frost is concerned, he was very busy here
    and there for a few short years (is not a jazz drummer but 
    a pretty fair groove drummer) but like jazz drummer Jack 
    Sperling & other drummers of that period, his work dwindled
    pretty fast at one point I remember and thereafter he moved 
    out of LA up to Oregon. He did more session work than Nick 
    ever did.
    People still have little idea of all the creativeness of 
    the totally-experienced studio musicians on all those 
    dates. Brian was the ONLY one who had semi-charts, parts 
    for some instruments were totally written out while other 
    charts were just chord-charts. 
    If people stop to think of the background of musicians in 
    those days: HARD bebop jazz, the GREAT big-band era of the
    40s and 50s which produced the finest musicians in the 
    world, years and years of combo work in nightclubs, and 
    the all-important MULTI-CHORDS of all the HUNDREDS of 
    STANDARDS we all had to not only play and read, but INVENT
    on BEFORE any of us did studio work....that experience is 
    NOT AVAILABLE at all today....sure many will play in 
    copy-cat "big-bands" but it's like eating a piece of cake 
    these days, nothing to develop musicians' creativity at 
    all like it was back in those days. 
    Those musicians were the STUDIO MUSICIANS of the 60s, 
    hardened by years of playing, on the road, playing tough 
    music that when I teach it today, pro-students WILT fast, 
    they had no idea the music we played was that "HARD". 
    There's a reason why you don't hear the musicianship today
    like who played in the great Artie Shaw, Goodman, Ellington, 
    Basie bands of yesteryear. 
    That's who you hear on all the 60s hits.
    Carol Kaye
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Re: Only Hal Blaine on drums
    Received:    12/19/99 11:09 am
    From:        Brad Elliott,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Carol Kaye wrote:
    > Richie did NOT play drums on any Brian Wilson date at all
    > - only Hal Blaine on drums.
    Jeez, I really hate to be put in the position of disputing
    Carol Kaye, but in this instance, I'm afraid she's wrong. 
    The AFM contract for the Nov. 17, 1965 date clearly lists 
    Donald R. (Ritchie) Frost as playing, with no other 
    drummers present. You can view this for yourself at 
    He's the third musician listed. Carol is, by the way, the 
    ninth name on the contract. (And, for anybody who might be 
    concerned, I did obscure the Social Security numbers of 
    the musicians.)
    > On the musicians contracts, they sometimes made mistakes
    > with the instrumentation, something that Russ Wapensky has
    > cleared up with tons of interviews with us studio musicians
    > /arrangers etc.
    > [snip]
    > He's the ONLY one we musicians/arrangers/composers and the
    > Musicians' Union people et al trust in this endeavor, a
    > responsible non-ego dogmatic documenter who cares about our
    > credits and is not out for himself at all. He wants to get
    > it right and that's why he's taking extra time
    > meticulously.
    Well, if you check the sessionography in the PET SOUNDS 
    SESSIONS booklet, which "was compiled using research 
    generously supplied by music historian Russ Wapensky," 
    you'll see that he too credits Frost with drums on "Pet 
    Sounds" (AKA "Run James Run"). If Russ now disputes that, 
    I'd be interested in learning why.
    Surf's up!
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Re: Cher / Four Seasons MONO
    Received:    12/19/99 11:09 am
    From:        Billy G. Spradlin,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Sheila Burgel, wrote:
    >Any Cher 45's that I MUST purchase? Is there a quality CD
    >compilation available?
    I recommend getting the EMI two-fer of her first two 
    albums on Imperial: "All I Want To Do"/"The Sonny Side of 
    Cher". I don't know if its still in print. The CD says 
    it's remixed from the original 3 track tapes, but it 
    sounds to me like the compilers used the same stereo 2-
    Track LP mixdown masters on most songs.
    These two albums were made when Sonny was still infatuated
    with the "Wall of Sound" production technique and recorded 
    at Gold Star. I like his take on it, its very unique 
    sounding because he infused 65-66 Folk-Rock elements like 
    jangling 12-String Rickenbackers and tambourines into the 
    Both albums have several great songs (My Favorite: Where 
    Do You Go) but also have a few clumsy sounding mid 60's 
    covers. If you see the CD, grab it. Her later Imperial 
    albums start heading toward Middle of the Road.
    There are many Cher "Hits" collections available but I 
    usually stay away from her Kapp/MCA (further into 
    schlockland though some fans really love this period) 
    Casablanca (disco, and that dreadful album with Dwayne 
    Allman), and Geffen (her Madonna-like facelift) recordings.
    On the subject of Four Seasons MONO, I wrote:
    >>I would love to see ACE or Rhino put together a Mono-Only
    >>compilation of the Seasons hits, because in many cases
    >>they sound much better than the stereo LP mixes. I guess
    >>theres no real market for it since there's many Seasons
    >>hits collections available.
    To which Paul Urbahns replied:
    >Rhino has gotten mono mania lately so just mention it to
    >them. They even call their Cds Rhino-fonic sound which I
    >will not purchase; I haven't bought a Rhino CD since I got
    >burned on a Booker T hits set which was almost 100 percent
    >mono. I have no problem with people issuing mono CDs but I
    >wish companies would be honest and mark them as such.
    I wish more re-issue companies would list tracks as 
    stereo or mono. Most companies such as Rhino would do that
    back in the 80's and also mention if the song was remixed, 
    but for some weird reason they don't do that anymore. I 
    guess Rhino's figured that "The Mono Mix is the Definitive
    Mix"...maybe that's true for singles but not for LP tracks. 
    I thought it was very weird when Rhino tossed in a stereo 
    version of the Gestures' "Run Run Run" right in the middle 
    of a almost all-mono CD on the Nuggets box set!
    I'm only 38. I grew up listening to FM Oldies radio and 
    collecting CD and LP reissues where they would use the 
    stereo mix, so many mono mixes of classic hits that I have 
    heard for years sound very different to me! Now and then they 
    surprise me.
    It seems to me like many 60's hits were super-compressed 
    for radio in the mono mix, while the stereo mix is flatter
    sounding and sometimes drastically sounds different from 
    the "hit". Some elements in the mix (vocals/backing track/
    extra instrumentation) are buried while other elements are
    mixed up front or even added on many single versions.
    I don't want to get into another stereo/mono debate; I 
    just bought the Smokey Robinson & The Miracles 35th 
    anniversary box set (after seeing it on sale for $25!) and
    it's almost all mono for all the 60's material, but since 
    companies like Motown usually spent more time on the mono 
    mixes for radio and left the stereo mix to be done quickly
    by an "assistant engineer", I feel like the compilers made 
    the right decision for using the mono mixes.
    If I ever find a email address for Rhino I will mention it
    to them.
    Billy G. Spradlin
    29 Rim Road
    Kilgore, Texas 75662
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Re: "must have" Cher
    Received:    12/19/99 11:09 am
    From:        Claudia C.,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    To Sheila regarding "must have" Cher records: 
    For me, Sonny and Cher bring back the best year of my life,
    1965. There was nothing like it musically. 
    While I really love all their early stuff, I must 
    recommend Cher's rendition of Bob Dylan's "All I Really 
    Want to Do" in which Cher - sounding like the teenager she
    was - gives a convincing performance as a girl not really 
    interested in the attentions of some would-be suitor and 
    opines that "All I really want to do, baby, is be friends 
    with you". 
    The lyrics are great - One can picture our Cher kind of 
    looking down, picking at her fingernails, bored to tears 
    (shades of the old Sonny and Cher show during their opening
    monologue, as Sonny is lecturing Cher on some subject) as 
    the guy is groveling before her. Perhaps she is yawning, 
    "I don't want to meet your kin, make you spin or do you 
    in", she continues...."All I really want to do (yawn) ... 
    is be friends with you".
    >From the first note, which grabs your interest 
    immediately, to the last fade out, you're hooked. The 
    sound of of the song invokes all those incredibly great 
    images of 1965, totally indescribable if you weren't there
    ....and one can picture Sonny, standing in the wings, 
    applauding Cher for a job well done. 
    Sheila-----buy the record!! 
    Quote of the week:
    "Making a comeback is one of the most difficult things to do 
    with dignity"  Greg Lake of Emerson, Lake and Palmer
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     I'll Never Need More Than This
    Received:    12/19/99 11:09 am
    From:        Jamie LePage,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Jake Tassell wrote:
    >Does anyone out there know why I've got two completely 
    >different sounding mixes of I and T.T.'s 'I'll Never Need 
    >More Than This'?
    I don't know if this is will answer your question, Jake, 
    but could it be the most obvious answer? That is, the 
    difference between the original Philles mix in mono and 
    the more familiar stereo mix which appears on the A&M I&TT 
    album River Deep, Mountain High? The mixes are radically 
    different. The mono mix is very, very muddy. One has to 
    strain to hear any definition on the strings. The stereo 
    mix, however, is much clearer; the strings (and percussion) 
    are far more prominent.
    Which is better? Subjective, really. Technically speaking,
    I suppose the stereo mix is cleaner, but the mono mix has 
    great appeal in its own way. For some reason, the single 
    mix might be viewed as the last Spector recording to 
    embody (without a hint of irony) elements of both Brill 
    writing and New York pop record production (despite the 
    fact it was LA, Gold Star and all the regulars). The stereo 
    album mix, sadly in a way, points towards a more defined, 
    modern approach (remixed by Larry at the new A&M studios? 
    Anyone know?). 
    I have never heard the Philles pressing of River Deep, 
    Mountain High, but I assume the mix on "I'll Never Need 
    More Than This" is the same mono mix as Philles 135. Any 
    lucky person here actually own this extremely rare album 
    that can confirm?
    In any event, Jake, please tell us how the two versions 
    differ or at least let us know the source of the recordings 
    (e.g. cat #). It would be fantastic to find an alternative 
    mix to this peak-era Spector master.
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Separating The Goths From The Brits
    Received:    12/19/99 11:09 am
    From:        jake tassell,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Dear Spectropop
    Thinking of Andrew Loog Oldham, Francoise Hardy, Charles 
    Blackwell (btw, I think there is probably no relation 
    there, Carol) all getting a mention on the Spectropop List 
    lately - and even Michel Polnareff! turning up on The 
    Liquid Room's playlist, has made me think a lot about The 
    Spector influence on the English and Continental-European 
    production styles of that time. It seems interesting to me
    how when that influence initially hit England, what a dogs 
    dinner was made of it (a la - early British rock n roll - 
    tres diabolique) but they did find an interesting solution
    to the problem. It's clear in hindsight that, for some 
    reason (we didn't have Gold Star!), the style couldn't be 
    mastered on it's own terms (although Dusty Springfield's 
    'Stay Awhile' is a pretty convincing reverbstormer) so it 
    had to, in a sense 'go native' before it could work 
    properly. Paradoxically enough it was the influence of 
    another American; - Burt Bacharach, that helped create a 
    more 'mature' (advisable commas) 'Europeanised' take on 
    the Wall of Sound thing - which again became something 
    else entirely. At that time purveyors of this sound would 
    also put out versions of their hit songs sung in French, 
    Italian and Spanish, and augment their material with 
    either ersatz Burt songs or material gleaned from 
    Continental European song festivals. All the British 
    versions of those great Bacharach/David songs:- Sandie 
    Shaw, Cilla Black, Dusty Springfield, The Walker Brothers 
    (Yeah I know The Walkers were Yanks - but they were over 
    here draft-dodging, and Scott was the biggest Francophile 
    this side of the Maginot Line) - you hear it - The 
    European Wall of Sound - more damp and gothic sounding 
    than Phils' finest - and a little less frenetic, but it's 
    the Wall of Sound nevertheless. If you listen to the 
    American originals of those songs, T.W.O.S. is nowhere to 
    be found, it's pretty minimalist:- a piano, somebody 
    playing the brushes, solo trumpet, girl singers etc.
    The Europa Fetish that oozed from the aforementioned 
    British W.O.S. records was a fairly shortlived phenomenon 
    that coincided with, and can possibly be linked to the, at
    that time, new availability of cheap continental holidays 
    for working-class teenagers (as can large components of 
    the British 'mod' look of the '60's). Musically speaking 
    this stream began with the influence of The Crystals and 
    Ronettes, gained fruition with Petula, Sandie and Dusty, 
    got ravingly power-drunk on Barry Ryan's 'Eloise', and 
    reached it's logical Spectorial point of intense destiny 
    kicking and screaming into a botttomless abyss on the 
    recordings that make up 'Scott Walker Sings Jacques Brel'.
    The British ignorance of any Continental-European 
    tradition in pop music before or since reflects fairly 
    well the complete lack of identification with its 
    geographical proximity. This is partly a cultural divide, 
    but also simply to do with language difference. Since the 
    channel-tunnel opened you can now get to Paris from London
    quicker than you can get to Liverpool or Manchester;- but 
    hardly anyone in England has heard of Francoise Hardy, 
    Serge Gainsbourg, France Gall etc. and apart from the 
    aforementioned artists, my knowledge of sixties 
    continental pop is fairly limited too. Any of you Spectros
    got any good recommendations? 
    Jake Tassell
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     About arrangers
    Received:    12/19/99 11:09 am
    From:        Carol Kaye,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    When I wrote about Brian was the "only one" doing most of 
    his writing of arrangements, I hope that everyone got it, 
    that I meant about the young rock groups doing their own 
    producing, etc. He was the only one (outside of Frank 
    Zappa, who I consider a more-trained musician/composer/
    arranger and who used 2-3 of his band along with our 
    guitar group of studio musicians) who did his own 
    arranging, brought in note-written parts (not just chord 
    change sheets).
    Our group of tough experienced fine musicians from the 
    jazz and big-band fields of those great breeding grounds 
    of tons of tunes with tons of chordal changes (not like 
    the later rock bands that didn't have nearly the chords 
    that we grew up with) were the group of studio musicians 
    in the 60s who cut the rock and roll record hits from LA. 
    Ray Pohlman, who was the elec. bassist starting about 1955
    -56, quickly became "the" elec. bassist about '57-'58 and 
    was playing elec. bass on 75-90% of those recordings all 
    the time....but they used other adjunct bassists too, 
    string bass players (at least a string bass and elec. bass
    on almost every date) and even sometimes a bass-guitarist 
    too (Dano click bass guitar, 06 -string instrument, tuned 
    like a guitar but down 1 octave) making it 3 basses on a 
    And yes, they did have some arrangers....but they wrote 
    mostly chord charts, and we'd have to create our own 
    arrangements from them (head arrangements they were called
    ...spontaneous from all of us playing live together). 
    Jack Nitzsche (I never could spell his name right) was the
    gofer person for H.B. Barnum and his copyist and he got 
    into arranging for Phil and a few others in the early 60s.
    ....his wife was Gracia, beautiful petit woman, great 
    background studio singer (high voice), nice person. 
    Jack and Gracia even went fishing with my 2nd husband and 
    me on our cabin cruiser boat one time (about 1962) and 
    Jack gaffed a big shark (about 2-3 miles off of Zuma Beach. 
    We got chumming the waters for the smaller blue sharks 
    and it attracted a huge big school of bigger and bigger 
    blue sharks -- one so big that Gracia was hooked up to (we
    had 10 lb. test lines and had to be careful not to break 
    the lines) that was almost as long as our 28' foot boat, 
    it was fun for awhile. We finally caught (wore them out 
    actually) three 8-foot blue sharks that day which was the 
    talk of the Paradise Cove pier, the meat was white too, 
    like swordtail. 
    One of those biggies was so tame right next to the boat 
    that Jack reached over and gaffed it, and the gaff broke 
    off in the head of the shark and it swam away with the 
    gaff-head stuck in its head....that's the only time I ever
    saw Jack get really nervous.
    We were laughing, eating my home-made cake, chicken and 
    drinking beer. H. B. Barnum and his sister, studio singer 
    Billie were on the boat too. 
    I've heard some stories about Jack after I stopped working
    for him (had gone on to work for Quincy Jones, Michel 
    LeGrand, Walter Scharf, others) but when I bumped into him
    in an elevator, mid-80s, on the way to my attny (he was 
    doing the same thing in Century City), we connected and 
    talked - it had been over 15 years - but it was like it 
    was just yesterday, the same ol' Jack, seemed really nice 
    like he was back then.
    Perry Botkin was another arranger who really quickly got 
    the rock and pop styles of music together in his writings,
    a quintessential wonderfully talented good guy....but he, 
    like the rest, wanted us to still donate some creativity, 
    like we always did. 
    Our group of studio musicians played hard too....we liked 
    to, plus we knew if we did, whatever tunes and singers we 
    were playing for would insure being a hit recording and/or
    sell really well, insuring us to work for that "account" 
    (as we called each artist/producer/arranger back then) for 
    the following year)....thus, keeping the "business 
    Also, we knew the jive things back then...the fact that 
    the public was being told one thing in fan magazines, 
    untruths as to "who really played on the records" and who 
    really did, saw some stuff, plus it was the first time in 
    history that rock and roll records were selling like 
    hotcakes and mostly jazz and bigband great musicians were 
    not only performing on them but helping to create them, 
    even with the later more-elaborate music arrangements that
    were being written.
    No other group of studio musicians have done that since 
    then.....altho' you still have the Milli-Vanilli stuff 
    happening all the time, and younger studio musicians are 
    having to sign contracts to "not tell" etc., they still 
    couldn't do the creating and hard playing we did back 
    By the time I accidently started playing elec. bass in the
    studios (late 1963) when a bass player didn't show at 
    Capitol, Ray Pohlman was probably doing about 90% of the 
    record dates on Fender Bass and soon he was the musical 
    director of the Shindig TV show which really left a big 
    hole in elec. bass, and I got a ton of work then...and 
    soon they realized that with my hard-pick heavy-playing, 
    plus my boogaloo rhythmic bass line inventing, they didn't
    need the "other bass", or "other 2 basses", just one bass...
    and that's how that evolved in 1964-65 altho' several 
    still wanted the "2-bass" record date (Brian, Nancy 
    Sinatra, Phil, and a couple of others) and some like Sonny
    & Cher still wanted my elec. 12-string double-time fills on
    their recordings altho' I did play bass on Cher's later 
    recordings in the 60s, same for Phil - he wanted me on 
    guitar on most of his dates at first, then it was bass a 
    little later.
    BTW, I spoke of being pregnant with Gwyn on Phil's dates. 
    Well, Darlene Love and Fanita were pregnant at the same 
    time too, and we all worked our tails off at Gold Star 
    (about 1963) for Phil.
    The guys thanked me one time after I played pretty hard on
    the acoustic 12-string guitar, and told Phil (after about 2
    -1/2 hours with no break),"Phil, my kidneys are ready to HAVE to let us have a bathroom break" and just
    got up...he did call a break then....Larry Levine had that 
    scared look like he usually did when us pregnant gals 
    walked into the studio (think it was his face was welded 
    with that look). Anyway, that's the story for now in back 
    of those early hits.
    Carol Kaye
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Terra launch
    Received:    12/19/99 11:09 am
    From:        Carol Kaye,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    I hope you all will know that Terra, this NASA launch, 
    which up to now has been very low-profile, will go around 
    our planet and send data back to NASA about our 
    environment, its health, pollution, etc. from all over the
    My daughter, Gwyn (who early on I named my book publishing
    co. after in 1969, long story on the name, my other two 
    felt a little left out but are OK now about it) has been 
    working for Goddard for about 13-14 years now and is on 
    this all-important NASA team of data-collectors of this 
    Formerly she was partially responsible for keeping the 
    oldest satellite aloft way past its prime, thereby saving 
    tax payers millions of of this sort never 
    seems to get out in the news media.
    She's a good strong girl and said that was boring, kind of, 
    but she is happy to be on this mission with its heavy work 
    load, etc. (no they don't make a lot of money at NASA fyi 
    but there's a lot of dedication in this work). And what 
    does this have to do with the Spectropop list? 
    I was pregnant with her when I played a lot of dates for 
    Phil Spector for one, playing some tough acoustic 12-
    string stuff too....was working quite a bit...Gwyn has 
    talent, but she opted to be a "space woman" instead.
    Will keep you posted, we hope it lifts off tomorrow, it 
    has been postponed a while now. "Terra" will start to 
    send data in in about 2-3 mos. and then it'll take 
    scientists about 2 years of analyzing before the public 
    actually knows something substantial. Something tells me 
    we'll be driving electric cars soon. This mission will 
    affect everyone in our world I think. 
    Carol Kaye
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

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