__________________________________________________________ __________ __________ __________ __________ __________ S P E C T R O P O P __________ __________ __________ __________________________________________________________ Volume #0332 October 15, 1999 __________________________________________________________ Adventures in StereoSubject: Re: Diane Renay Received: 10/14/99 11:16 pm From: Diane renay, CEIIxxxxxcom To: spectxxxxxe.com Dear John: All I can say about Ms. Ross is that she used language that would have made a sailor blush, ha, ha! There definitely was a lot of tension amongst the girls. As for myself, even though the dressing room was soooo small, (standing room only with a few chairs squeezed in between all of us), I made it a point to stay as far to one side of the room as possible! I was just a nice clean cut All American Girl, just out of high school, very sheltered and very green. You can just imagine what an experience it must have been for me! That is all I am willing to say, although I could say more, but I won't. Regarding where you might find a copy of the dance version of "NAVY BLUE," I honestly don't know. I don't even know if they are available. There were not that many records released when it came out. I might have an extra 45 stored at my Father's house but I am not sure, I can check and see if I have an extra to spare. If so, I could send you one if you would like. Let me know. I wouldn't be able to send for a couple of weeks though, but I will send it as soon as I am able. Just email me your mailing address. I actually liked the newer version better then the old, because I was grown up when I recorded it and it gave me a chance to sing in a more mature voice. Also, it is a dance record and has a great beat, if you enjoy dancing! Talk to you again. Sincerely, Diane Renay <[:>) --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: soft pop story on the web Received: 10/14/99 11:16 pm From: Michael White, haxxxxxrlog.com To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Hello all! Some of you may remember some postings from me a few months back regarding a story that I was working on about soft pop for a Canadian music paper. That story now proudly graces the October cover of Exclaim! Magazine across Canada, and is available for everyone to view at www.exclaim.ca Just click on the cover image to go directly to the story. I welcome any feedback - positive or negative - at the address above, even if only to enthusiastically discuss this wonderful genre further. I should mention that the story emphasizes soft pop's influence on modern groups almost as much as, if not more than, it does the original artists. This wasn't my initial intention, but the magazine was concerned that its younger readers (and most of them *are* young) wouldn't necessarily be interested in a history lesson unless it related to something they were familiar with. I completely agree; hopefully, a few kids will run out to buy a Millenium or Association album. I use two artists specifically to illustrate soft pop's continuing legacy: Stereolab and the High Llamas. Some people haven't been crazy about this, but - after reading the story - if anyone wants to engage me in a friendly debate, feel free. Others who inputed their thoughts to the story are Bones Howe, Dawn Eden, David Bash and Andrew Sandoval (and Andrew, if you're reading this, I lost your e-mail). Be sure to click on the sidebar links above the story for some lists 'n' such. Thanks for indulging this little plug. Hope you all enjoy what you see! All the best, Mike White Vancouver, BC --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Gold Star Lives Again Received: 10/14/99 11:16 pm From: Jimmy Cresitelli, Jimxxxxxcom To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com What with Carol Kaye's stupendous and detailed notes re the Spector recording sessions, I feel like I'm right there in the studio with the "wrecking crew..." I imagine myself assisting by banging on a tambourine for endless fascinating takes, while assorted Crystals, Blossoms, Ronettes, and others line the concrete walls in various states of sleep / insomnia... endless cups of coffee, pounds of bagels... cigarettes... seeing and hearing, but not really knowing, that though "gold" might be pouring from those speakers, no one can yet understand that historical innovations are being forged on a magician's console. Oh wow... to have been fortunate enough to have been there... !!! These posts make me go back into my darkened living room with the old Philles 45s, turning up the earphone volume and listening hard and close for the elusive background notes and details... like, is that really Darlene's voice poking out from under La La's on "Da Doo Ron Ron" at certain points...? That's as close as I'll ever get to actually being there in person: Spring, 1963: not just another California season, you know? --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Re: Scott Walker & Brazilian stuff Received: 10/14/99 11:16 pm From: Pacific Ocean Bluto, wuxxxxxet.se To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Larry Koch, half man/half beast, wrote re the Walker Brothers: >Who produced that stuff - was it Wally Stott? I've seen that name somewhere but can't place it.....the person who produced the Walker Brothers was, according to the CD liner notes, John Franz, who I haven't heard of before. [Milton Nascimento] >Thanks. Speaking of Bituca (Milton's nickname to his >friends, meaning something like "Stumpy" (he's rather >short)), has there ever been any discussion of Creed >Taylor on this list? Not as far as I know. Who is he? Anyone who loves Van Dyke Parks' "Discover America" should listen to the "Tropicalia" compilation of Brazilian sixties pop. It's really good, and quite orchestral too. Modern Brazilian music is interesting. There were many of the country's songwriters who were doing to traditional Brazilian music what people such as Brian Wilson and Burt Bacharach did to American popular music. Actually, if BW and BB had come from Brazil, their music would've probably sounded a lot like the "Tropicalia" compilation. Also, bands like Os Mutantes shared Brian's anything-is-possible attitude, even going so far as making their own effect pedals! BTW, Larry has sent me some tapes with Astrud Gilberto's lesser known stuff, and she surprisingly covered a lot of Californian soft pop: The Association's "Windy"; "Follow The Rainbow" (also done by Harpers Bizarre), some Harry Nilsson songs... T. --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: soft rock Received: 10/14/99 11:16 pm From: Frank Youngwerth, xxxxxcom To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com <<(guitar solos on a Carpenters record?!?!?!?!) >> Not sure what you mean, but "Goodbye to Love" has almost as much (wailing) solo guitar as it has Karen, and it's one of their best. Frank --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Re: Carpenters/Sunshine Company Received: 10/14/99 11:16 pm From: Stewart Mason, flaxxxxx.com To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com >*Carpenters - Now & Then (1973) > >I don't know what to think of this record. Some of the >more typical Carpenters songs are fantastic, but Side 2... >it's put together as a *really* embarrassing phone-in >radio show, and the arrangements of a few songs (guitar >solos on a Carpenters record?!?!?!?!) sound just horrible. What's surprising about guitar solos on a Carpenters record? I think the point where Tony Peluso's solo wells up in the middle of "Goodbye To Love" is one of the great moments in 70s AM pop! >I really love the "Close To You" LP, but they seem to have >lost it majorly after its release..."Don't Cry For Me >Argentina" off 1977's "Passage" comes to mind, *shuddering >with horror*... I disagree -- my favorite thing about the Carpenters is that they were a classic singles band who were capable of doing extremely bizarre things on their albums, such as "Intermission," the last track on side one of A SONG FOR YOU, a brief acapella piece with multi-tracked voices singing "We'll be right back after we go to the bathroom." (?!) The medley on NOW AND THEN and some of their more bizarre covers, particularly "Argentina" and Klaatu's "Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft," also fall into this category for me, and this sort of thing is one reason why I like the Carpenters. Better they should do something utterly weird than play it safe all the time. >*Sunshine Company - Happy Is > >This one looked really interesting but sounds, uh, not >really interesting :). It's got covers of the Beatles' >"Rain", Curt Boetcher's "I Just Want To Be Your Friend", >Webb's "Up Up And Away", Roger Nichols' "Just Beyond Your >Smile" and more. Joey Stec, was this band friends with you >and Boettcher? Do you know why they decided to cover a >Millennium song? They covered more than one Boettcher song -- their second album contains "If You Only Knew." I don't have HAPPY IS, but their second and theird albums, THE SUNSHINE COMPANY (1967) and SUNSHINE AND SHADOWS (1968) are both excellent soft pop, and each has one absolutely stunning track, "Look, Here Comes the Sun" and Williams-Nichols' "To Put Up With You" respectively. I've read that there was an unreleased fourth album, but it's no doubt long gone. Stewart ****************************FLAMINGO RECORDS**************************** Stewart Allensworth Mason Box 40172 "Instantaneous death does not amount Albuquerque NM 87196 to torture." www.rt66.com/~flamingo **********************HAPPY MUSIC FOR NICE PEOPLE*********************** --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Sunshine Company Received: 10/14/99 11:16 pm From: Todd Mc, Toxxxxxcom To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Tobias wrote: > *Sunshine Company - Happy Is > > This one looked really interesting but sounds, uh, not > really interesting :). It's got covers of the Beatles' > "Rain", Curt Boetcher's "I Just Want To Be Your Friend", > Webb's "Up Up And Away", Roger Nichols' "Just Beyond Your > Smile" and more. Joey Stec, was this band friends with you > and Boettcher? Do you know why they decided to cover a > Millennium song? Gee, I hope I dig 'em more than you do, Tobias, seeing as how I just put my check in the mail for the Rev-Ola comp. I've only heard a few of their tunes, but it sounds like well-produced soft pop/light psych stuff to me, and you gotta love their taste in covers! Care to elaborate on your disappointment? On a somewhat related note, I was wondering what Spectropoppers in-the-know think of Eternity's Children and how the Phantom release (Australian?) stacks up against the Rev-Ola. Can't find track listings for Phantom anywhere, it seems to be about 5 bucks cheaper than the Rev-Ola (ditto their Sunshine Company disc). Thanks, Todd McMullen n.p. Flowerpot Men --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: DA DOO RON RON - WEB SITE & 1st ANNIVERSARY SHINDIG Received: 10/14/99 11:16 pm From: CHRIS KING, cxxxxxnet.co.uk To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Thought that you may be interested to know that my 6T's girl group & femme soul club Da Doo Ron Ron now has it's own (nascent!) web site. You can check in at:- http:// www.shimokawakelly.freeserve.co.uk/index.html After the roaring success of September's sold-out Da Doo Ron Ron club night, when Mark Lamarr was the mega guest DJ, Da Doo Ron Ron returns for its first Birthday bash on Wednesday 20th October. Yes, quite remarkably we have now been Da Doo Ron Roning for an entire year! Joining in the festivities will be special guest DJ's Beans Geddes from Brit-scooping Scots popsters Belle & Sebastian, (Beans is a renowned northern soul & girl group aficionado!) and regular spinner at hip Glasgow beat boudoir Divine and B & S tour DJ Andrew Symington. So, forget Ibiza and come whoop it up on Wed 20th October and enjoy a night of Doo Lang spangled revelry to mark DDRR's first anniversary. WEDNESDAY 20th OCTOBER DA DOO RON RON CELEBRATES its FIRST BIRTxxxxxNa Na, 259 Upper Street, Islington, Highbury Corner N1. Tel:-0171 -359-6191. Below The Famous Cock Tavern. Directly adjacent to Highbury & Islington tube station. 9.00pm - 02 .00am. £3 with a flyer £5 without. Classic 6T's girl groups, Northern nightingales, Detroit dollies, Motown minxes, searing soul sirens & playful popstrels. Regular DJ's Chris D King & Declan Allen plus BEANS GEDDES (BELLE & SEBASTIAN) & Andrew Symington (Divine) spin femme only platters from the Ronettes, Marvelettes, Chiffons & Shangri-Las to Dusty, Nancy, Aretha and Petula. For further info please contact Da Doo Ron Ron promoter and organiser Chris King on E-mail:-cxxxxxnet.co.uk --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Pittsburgh Symphony Received: 10/14/99 11:16 pm From: Greg Matecko, moxxxxxrama.com To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com *William Steinberg and the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra - Funny someone should bring these guys up...we've had a new conductor for the last few years. I hear tell the guy has supposedly written some movie theme songs and stuff, but I think he's bamboozling everybody. This guy wrote Lesley Gore songs! I've seen his name on at least two of her records; "Sunshine, Lollipops & Rainbows" and one of my all-time favorites, "California Nights." Guy calls himself Marvin Hamlisch. Maybe I aughta head down to Heinz Hall's stage door one night and tell him to come clean... Greg Matecko, tongue FIRMLY planted in cheek... --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Other hits.... Received: 10/14/99 11:16 pm From: Carol Kaye, caroxxxxxhlink.net To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com John Rausch, thanks for your nice message. And to others too, thank-you for your nice words. >I could read that stuff all night. What a wonderful moment >in history it must have been (although no one probably >thought so at the time - "just another session"). > >But you said everyone knew that the Righteous Bros. song >was going to be a hit. Were there any other recording >dates when you knew what you were playing on was going to >be a smash hit?...or how about one that you DID think was >going to be big and ended up being a dud? Well, to answer your questions, yes yes....many signs were there for "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'", "Unchained Melody", Zippity DooDah and the biggest one we tho't was going be a biggie of Phil's: "River Deep Mountain High", was a big disappointment, (but did see it do well in the UK). So there's more of what we tho't were going to be hits that were duds for sure. But.....from the start, you knew that "La Bamba" was a biggie (the feel and Ritchie's singing, plus it was different), several of the Herb Alpert things, lots of the early stuff, and of course "Boots" (Nancy Sinatra) was kind of a surprise but had that "hit feel element" groove, as did "The Beat Goes On" (once Sonny liked the bass line I came up with on guitar and gave it to Bob West to play on elec. bass.....that was such a biggie to me -- not ego-wise, we were all creating lines on our own to make a recording hit sound -- but the fact that the lines of the bass are so hugely important in making a tune "happen", that was a big revelation to me at that time), and I'd say most of the hits after that we'd predict pretty well. Even the Marketts' "Batman" but that surpassed our expectations as we always tho't the TV theme 1st recording would be the " biggie". We knew that several of the Ray Charles things "I Don't Need No Dr." etc. would be biggies, as well as "Feelin' Alright" (Joe Cocker -- which was rereased and was a #1 hit again later), and "The Way We Were". AS well as the groups recordings: Gary Lewis & Playboys, Hondels, Dino-Desi-Billy, Buckinghams, Jan & Dean, Ripchords etc. You do get a good sense of "hits-in-the-making" when that's all you do day after day, night after night for years, that's your business. I could predict the Lettermen hits, Andy Williams, Mancini, as well as Vickie Carr, Frankie Laine, but the one by Nancy Wilson "Peace Of Mind" was a surprise that it was that big, so was she surprised. But getting back to Phil, we all knew he had that Midas touch and damn, every one was a biggie for him until the " River Deep" recording which took us all off-guard. But actually looking back, it was too much of a party-scene during the recording of that, and maybe that much distraction (altho' Phil loved people around him) took his usual edge off in producing...maybe it could have been better, who knows. I had no idea that "Soul And Inspiration" was going to be a biggie, just tho't it was a "nice" recording. We had been recording with Nancy Sinatra 2-3 dates before "Boots" hit and nothing special, but then Boots hit big, and we were a little surprised at it getting so high, but timing is a big thing for a certain sound, song, feel, singing, etc. to hit also. Was the right time for her to hit big with the right impact-song. I knew that Wichita Lineman was going to be a biggie, had that feel all over it. But walked away after cutting "Games People Play" with Mel Torme thinking I had failed him. I had play a mountain of 16th notes just to wake up the tired drummer (he had been on the road a lot, fine drummer but we all need some help sometimes, being tired a lot), and walked into the booth to apologize for the bass concerto, and they "loved it"...I tho't what I played was totally inappropriate, and went home very dejected, thinking I had failed Mel (the hit of "Come On Home" was big for him). I was totally shocked when "Games" was a big hit for Mel (he told me he made more money off that hit than any other in his career and he seemed proud of the recording altho' he's a great jazz singer, and he's just humming most of the time on it). So you never really "know" but the elements of a: 1. good or great song 2. great feel recording 3. great sounds, well-balanced with different tonal bottom - middle - and high ends 4. great musicianship 5. great engineering 6. great singing (appropo for the style tune and all), with fine background singers 7. and last but not least, the creative arrangements (our group used to make up arrangements at first and then "add" to the written arrangements later...all the hook lines, ideas, key-changes, breaks, montuno lines, soft-parts, loud-parts, weights in sounds, the actual framework of the song and singer. All these points not necessarily in this order either, you never know. Sometimes (as was most of the time) you can have a so-so song (or worse) and a so-so singer, and have a big hit too if the other elements can overcome it all and just be larger than life. Then it's up to the distribution, air-play, public-acceptance, and some in the personal appearances too. The A&R men (like Phil, now called producers) had a lot to do with this as well as the engineer(s), and the final mix, it was understood that that had to be great. But actually back then, there were a lot of fine engineers all over LA....there's a lot more engineers now, but they seem to be involved with technology, NOT with the overall feel and sounds of the whole recording like the fine-eared engineers of the 60s, I'm sorry to say. Most engineers today have no idea how important the real sounds of the bass and drums are no matter how nice and dedicated they are and some are just wonderful at their craft, but they're lost if they have to cut flat (or with little EQ), that's a dead giveaway to me that they "don't have it" as far as a great-sounding record - there's way too much EQ being used instead of getting the right mike setups, the skills of balancing one track with each other, getting the right sounds coming into the board - yes, I know digital is different. Still too much EQ and compression is used unnecessarily imo, killing the fine sounds peole need to feel good by... and those pesky synthesizer 1-man bands are still out there creating scores for films and TV shows, ugh, the budgets are so low. OK, I'm a throwback to the 60s era, but we've passed the point of good sounds with all that technical garbage I think. Herb Alpert also had great sounds in his ears in the 60s (Phil did, then Sonny Bono did, others too) and helped to create some great styles of new music (actually dixieland restyled imo which was Herb's idea - some pretty good music). But before everyone of the 60s were people like Lester Sill, Bumps Blackwell, and tons of great producers like Sonny Burke, Neely Plumb, David Cavenaugh at Captitol, just on and on. Phil had some pop ideas in sounds which no-one in their right mind would have ever done back then: wash it with so much echo, and they can't seem to repeat that, altho' the latest Matthew Sweet album I'm playing bass on (most cuts) is very close to that "In Reverse".... funny thing, one fellow just emailed me after purchasing this new CD of Matthew's, that on the cut of "I Should Never Have To Let You Go" that I sound just like Jamerson. ....he had no idea I did a lot of Motown dates of the 60s and I had to gently tell him, "no, I sound like ME". Oh well -- and for the Jamerson fans, I've ALWAYS said that Jamerson started Motown with his great bass playing, that he did oodles of great Motown hits, and I'm probably the ONLY one who helped him get recording work out here in 1970 too etc. But we did some Motown out here in LA too since 1962.... even Perry Botkin has said "you all were doing so many recordings for Motown out here since 1962-63 that I always tho't that Motown was an LA company". Enough of that, I've filed a lawsuit about slander about that (Oct. 6) against Alan Slutky, etal. who has been particularly vicious in his quest to try to "prove that all Motown 60s hits were cut back in Detroit". >Just wondering tho...When with the Supremes, was Diane >Ross as hard to get along with as history makes her out to be? When we did a great majority of the Supremes recordings of the 60s out here it was mostly tracking dates. Engineer Armin Steiner told me on the phone about schepping those masters back to Detroit and they'd add their voices on there. But he mentions in his MIX Magazine 1979 article that his mother did some home-cooking for the Supremes when they were recording out here in LA early 60s too fyi. So I didn't meet or work with her until later in the 60s as far as I can recall....she was fine on the "Ain't No Mountain High Enough" date at RCA, and later we did her TV special with the Temptations at NBC "G.I.T. On Broadway" (Getting It Togeher On Broadway), as filmed by Ollie Mitchell on his Suepr 8 camera (she almost had his camera conviscated but he got to keep it), one of the trumpet players on the call. She seemed to be under a great deal of pressure with this TV show, a little short w/people but definitely professional all the way....it was long days and waiting to film etc. Diana Ross had a lot of energy tho' and this projected well on the takes and inspired the band some too. Russ Wapensky just called. He's very aware that people are all excited for his book but he's a very meticulous person, and wants all the loose ends tied up good before the book goes to press, but he mentioned that it's probably only a few weeks now and it will be ready to go to print. He knows how this reference book is the only one of its kind giving recording credits to all the studio musicians 1945- 1969 and he wants it to be above reproach and thanks everyone for their patience. >Can you talk about Jan Berry in the studio? And Dean? > >For example, Bones Howe told me that Jan tried >overdubbingn Hal on drums, but couldn't get the effect he >wanted. So he had Hal and Earl both on sessions. Then Hal >told me that he and Earl would work out the drum part, >then write it out and play simultaneously. "Drag City" is >a prime example I was given. > >Was Jan like Brian, or more like Phil? Yes, seems to me I sort of remember the above...it was sure a good groove when Earl was added to the tracks... Howard Roberts is on all of that too I believe (or most) and we liked the groove we could play w/Earl added. I don't know if Jan is more like Phil or Brian, he had his own distinctive intelligent personality, and sense of humor too. It's been a long time, but we enjoyed working for Jan who did have some pretty good ideas, not as elaborate as say Brian, but he held his own for his styles of music. We did contribute quite a few of our own ideas too, was pretty simple music to do. Jan was good to work for, easy to get along, almost as self-possesed as Phil and Brian, and had his own personality, a little bit cocky for his youth (that's normal for talented young men) but definitely with a lot more heart and feeling than most of the other younger men we worked for. Our generation was not ego-prone, and were self-effacing and the 60s generation of younger producers were nothing like that - they were proud of the things that they were contributing to the rock recording scene, so when I say "cocky" that's a compliment believe me especially in Jan's case. Since his accident of course, he's lost a certain am't of that self-assuredness but you got to give him credit for moving on with his life. He was a brilliant medical student while we were working for him and we were very much in respect for him for his studies too. >Concerning Phil Spector: I read somewhere that in 1965 >the Los Angeles musicians union shut down Phil's operation >for violating union rules. With Phil's penchant for >controversy, I wouldn't be surprised. Could be, I either had forgotten that or didn't know anything about that. The Union was very STRONG back then... even the nightclubs all over LA and Hollywood, et al, were Union (only a handful are today and even the TV shows are rampant in their non-Union recordings in 1-man home studios in the Valley, unfortunately). And if there was any slight infringement, they were quick to act. I do know that my name got left off of one of Phil's contracts (and one of Sonny Bono's too) and I got a separate check later on....little things like that, and I'm not the only one whose name was not included here and there....those contracts are not filled out properly too sometimes, which is another thing holding up Russ Wapensky's book, the Spector contracts with their peculiarities and non-listings of tunes (sometimes) etc. So that could be, and Phil was a clock-watcher with money too and there were a few minutes overtime not reported etc. at times. Best, Carol Kaye http://www.carolkaye.com/ http://www.experience.org --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: And....PS Received: 10/14/99 11:16 pm From: Carol Kaye, caroxxxxxhlink.net To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com About the differences in sounds between today and the 60s when it comes to the Phil Spector "wall of sound" sounds.. no-one can successfully duplicate the specter of all the LEAKAGE of sounds too --- we all played pretty loud in the room there at Gold Star Studios, and in spite of the baffles and all, we leaked everywhere into each others' mikes. I think that's the real "Wall Of Sound" you're hearing - leakage. Somehow Phil managed to get us all on the record somewhere there, even my acoustic gutiar track is there on "You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'", altho' buried until you hear the montuno part of the bridge where you hear me play the bassline with Ray Pohlman.....trying to keep the beat from "sinking" which it almost wanted to do. It was a good balance between everyone's idea of where the groove lay. Carol Kaye --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- End
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