__________________________________________________________ __________ __________ __________ __________ __________ S P E C T R O P O P __________ __________ __________ __________________________________________________________ Volume #0330 October 11, 1999 __________________________________________________________ Exploring Uncharted Patterns of SoundSubject: Obscure GG releases Received: 10/10/99 8:36 pm From: Sheila Burgel, pxxxxxrport.net To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Hello everyone! For the new issue of "Cha Cha Charming" I'm looking to dedicate a section to obscure girl group records- where I review the records, give some background information, state it's availability on a CD reissue, show photos etc, etc. But the major problem with doing an article like this is finding the background information and photos!! So I've come to all of you at Spectropop with a plea for help! I've listed the artists and records that will be featured in this article. If any of you have background info (artist & label)/ photos/ anything (!!) please could you email me! Thanks very much, Sheila B. p.s. For the girl group fans, ALL of the records below are essential! The Knick Knacks: Without you (Columbia) Marie Applebee: Down by the sea (End of Summer) (Jubilee) Bonnie and the Denims: Time Will Tell (LLP) Vicki Hill: Give him Up (Congress) The Cannon Sisters: I'm sorry I went (Valiant) Loretta: My heart tells me to believe (Valiant) Lornettes: Down the block and up to heaven (Gallio) Joy and the Sorrows: On and On (MGM) Lollipops: Gee whiz (Smash) Marie Antoinette: He's my dream boy (Providence) --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Re: Diane Renay Received: 10/07/99 12:58 am From: Diane renay, CEIIxxxxxcom To: spectxxxxxe.com Dear John: Thank you for putting all those photos on display. In 1996 People Magazine contacted me and I agreed to allow them to do this article for the "Where Are They Now" segment of that issue. The photos were taken during various performances around the country, during the time when "NAVY BLUE" was at the top of the charts. The Supremes and I did a three day show for Dick Clark at Steel Pier in Atlantic City, New Jersey. I shared a dressing room with the girls, and it was very close quarters! The picture of the Rolling Stones and me was taken at a party after the last performance of a show held at the "Teen Fair" in Texas. This was the Stones' first time performing in the US. I even rode in a limousine to greet them at the airport when they first arrived in the US to do this show and start their promotional tour of the US. Bobby Rydell and I appeared together for one week at a huge park in New York. Peter and Gordon were also in the show. We all stayed in the same hotel right outside of the park. It was lots of fun! The pictures of Jan & Dean as well as Johnny Tillotson were also taken at the same Dick Clark show at Steel Pier in Atlantic City. The picture I took with Tony Bennett was taken in Las Vegas at Caesar's Palace in 1966. I was vacationing there with my parents and was taken backstage to be introduced to him. Sincerely: Diane Renay <[:>) --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: What's going on over there? Received: 10/10/99 8:36 pm From: Pekka Johansson, pexxxxxlynx.com To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Hi everyone on the list, I've been on the Spectropop list for a few weeks now, and I really appreciate the discussions. For me as a Swede it's fun also to see the remarks on Hep Stars - in my view they really don't qualify as a great pop group of the 60's. OK, there are three exceptions, all written by Benny: " Sunny Girl", "Wedding" and "Consolation". The rest is mainly bad covers of even worse songs... I realize that the gg collection "Girls will be girls" on Sequel has been released in the US recently. GO AND GET IT ! Much better than the two "Where the girls are" volumes on Ace. "Did you ever love a guy" by a obscure group called The Emeralds is worth the price of the CD itself. Now to the real point of this mail. Between October 14 and November 29 I'll be travelling around the States, visiting what I consider to be places of musical importance, ie Chicago, Detroit, NY, Memphis, New Orleans, LA, SF and so on. I will be travelling on a Greyhound pass, and will therefore be able to go almost anywhere. If you, dear people on the list, knows about any happenings (concerts, fairs, dancing) related to early 60's pop, especially girl groups, I would be extremely glad if you could mail me on the address above. Take care, Pekka Johansson, Stockholm, Sweden --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: How loud? Pretty loud. Received: 10/10/99 8:36 pm From: Carol Kaye, caroxxxxxhlink.net To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Hi Tobias. >How much of that famous Wall Of Sound could you, as a >musician sitting in the recording room, hear? You >obviously all had to focus on your individual parts. I >read somewhere that Brian sometimes added echo, reverb, >compression and such things while you guys were playing. >Did Spector do that too, or was all that stuff added after >the session musicians had left the building? I guess what >I'm asking is how much the producers did themselves >without interacting with the musicians. At first, when we recorded for Phil, we didn't wear earphones, which was the style of the day. There were very few baffles set up either (temporary walls padded to isolate sounds), and of course we kept the volumes down low on our amps. The problem back then was the leakage of the drums, so naturally, there were always baffles around the drummer, and he muted his drums too (putting masking tape also across the cymbals, blankets inside the bass drum, hankerchiefs rolled up and taped on tom-toms, usually their wallet -- no they weren't 'fat' then -- on the snare drums, this was all for *sound*, not for real quieting of drums, the set of drums recorded better that way). Percussionists were usually next to the drums off to one corner. But Phil *always* played back his takes on, first, little tiny speakers, the size of car-speakers. He wanted to make sure his records played well on the radio for people in their cars, and then he'd BLAST the booth with his playbacks as loud as he could with volume and echo..... we'd all have ringing ears from listening to his takes in the booth, whew. Then as we recorded for Phil more and more, he got the idea to have us all wear earphones, as he started to put more and more baffles up to isolate the guitars and keyboards as well. Mac Rabbenec would sometimes play the organ kind of loud (he'd get his own baffle), and the acoustic keyboards wouldn't stand a chance then, so they were isolated as well as the percussionists and drums even more. And the individual guitar players as well, as you see in pictures on my website. Hal Blaine and Earl Palmer, the drummers Phil used, graduated to making their own paddings to put on their drums, and the bass drum all of a sudden shrunk, and they had special paddings for those heads too, and they still taped their cymbals. And we were using earphones then, and yes, there were many problems. At first, they couldn't be individually adjusted ("I can't hear myself", "I can't hear the guitars" "can't hear the bass" etc.), there was no echo put on at first. Then when the individual adjustments on earphones came in within a week or so, Phil was quick to put some echo in the earphones. There was so much echo in the earphones on the "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling" date, that no-one was playing well together. Hence my story of bearing down on the acoustic Epiphone Emperor guitar (Phil loved that box), and grinding away with rhythmic 8th-notes trying to congeal the rhythm together.... It seemed to work, and Phil heard me playing hard, and put a double-time echo on me only, which made my rhythm come out to 16th notes, very subtle but it's there and we sort of settled in for a nice groove (think Ray Pohlman the bassist and Earl Palmer the drummer both asked Phil for "less echo" too, so they could play better together) and then the real take happened for the Righteous Bros., who were there singing but probably were added on later for the real vocal -- it cost 2x the am't to track in those days and Phil also watched the money meter. Anyway, that date I do remember, because I remember the problems of the rhythm section, and we all knew this song was going to be a biggie hit, the tune was tremendously good, and the Righteous Bros. were knocking our blocks off with the way they were singing.....we never heard white singers sing like that before. So by that year, yes, Phil was using echo in our earphones practically all the time, but to varying degrees as to how much we would complain about it...if there's too much echo in our phones, the beat is not well-defined, and we couldn't groove then, plus it would throw us off a little bit. So he kept the echo volume down quite a bit in our earphones upon request, depended upon could we stand it or not. But you sure heard it in the booth. Phil loved echo which we understood, it was his trademark sound. >Also (and this was discussed about six months ago but >I've lost that digest), how *loud* were these sessions, >particularly with Spector? Obviously, his music sounds the >best if you crank your stereo up to 11, and what you get is >an enormous, almost angry, wall of noise. Were his sessions >louder (decibel-wise) than other producers'? YOU BET! He was the loudest! No-one even came close. Brian Wilson yes, sometimes he would add echo when we'd record, but usually not - he'd put it on later. But at least Brian kept the play-back levels decently "normal", never really loud and he never did what Phil did: play it back on a "car-speaker" at all, that was a criteria of Phil's, that his hits sounded great on car-speaker-sized speakers on the radio. With Brian, usually no, he didn't have us work recording " with echo" and as to the amount of Phil's recordings actually "recorded with echo", common sense said he didn't too much (you'd have to ask Larry Levine, he'd have the correct answers on this)....you always add echo *later*, that was the custom. It's a bear to record with echo, as you can't take it off later, so I'm assuming he played everything back "with echo", but kept adding it on and/or taking it off temporarily in the booth. Phil loved the sound of the Gold Star echo, which I understand speaking to other recording engineers was sort of a "dirty-sounding echo", I don't know, just repeating what they said... I have the utmost respect and admiration for the genius of Dave Gold who masterminded the system there at Gold Star, everyone in Hollywood did and does also...he's a great guy btw, so is Stan Ross, his partner and first engineer for Phil for awhile. The Gold Star echo ran right through the women's rest room -- if I took a break and they were playing it back, they'd ask me not to flush the toilet.... Producers were sort of "alone" in the booth, trying all sorts of things, especially Phil and Brian. We'd hear all kinds of wild things in our earphones as they'd try this or that to the music. Really had nothing to do with us, but we usually heard all the experimentation. Sometimes the studio musicians would sit and wait 10-20 min. at a time and instead of listening to all what they were doing in the booth, we'd take our earphones off and kibbitz in the room during that time, always waiting for them to get done with experimenting and we'd go on then. Your time is not your own, but sometimes there was time to take a quick hike to the bathroom, but usually you waited right there in the studio throughout any experimenatation with sounds Phil would do. So to answer your question, yes, Phil would normally record with echo in our phones, but the am't varied with how much we'd complain. And I suspect it wasn't the same echo, maybe it was, but I doubt it - he probably added it on again later when mastering. Or maybe cut with some slight echo and add more on later, that makes sense too. Phil loved echo, no doubt about it. Brian worked a different way. Phil was a showman, he'd always love to have an audience in the booth -- he'd get off on everyone being awed at his producing, including us studio musicians....we had a great admiration for him and he knew it, he respected us too, altho' he'd sometimes playfully pick on someone, sometimes a little too hard. Brian would sometimes have his wife and sister-in-law in the booth, but that's it. He loved to work alone with Chuck Britz at his side to assist if he needed it, sometimes, but he loved to toy around with everything himself. There were a few moments of that, then we'd go for a take, then change the music, then he'd toy around with sounds, or come out in the studio and play a differnent feel he wanted us to try, things like that. Phil had some music charts (arrangements or chord charts are called "charts"), and this got more complex as the years rolled by, written arrangements. We'd add to these charts mainly our ideas and he'd yea or nay them, or a few times would give us his ideas of how the parts should be interpreted. Brian wanted only his ideas, but sometimes would listen to others, especially Hal Blaine who got to play what he wanted to play. Sometimes the guitar players too, but Brian was more in charge speaking as a composer/arranger there. Phil depended upon arranger Jack Nitzsche and input from the musicians a lot more altho' he had some definite good musical ideas sometimes too. As did Sonny Bono a little later, altho' Sonny got some great arrangements from Harold Batiste, whose ideas were revolutionary.....he's a totally underated arranger, his ideas saved many a plain tune that Sonny and Cher wanted to do. But we still "donated" our lines and licks within the parameters of Harold's terrific arrangements. I don't remember Sonny recording with echo however. And FYI, I've always thought that Sonny was a totally underrated producer too, he was great in the booth, almost as great as Phil and Brian. Hope this answers your questions. Carol Kaye http://www.carolkaye.com/ http://www.experience.org PS. I do explain all this about Phil's use of echo on one of the video segments showing each week at this Experience Music website. --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: PS. from CK Received: 10/10/99 8:36 pm From: Carol Kaye, caroxxxxxhlink.net To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com About the Phil Spector sessions, I only mentioned Jack Nitzsche, but I think someone mentioned that Perry Botkin also did some arranging for Phil....I worked a lot for Perry at Gold Star for various projects, but my memory is kind of stuck on Jack being Phil's arranger. So excuse me if I didn't mention Perry, he's one of my favorite people too, we have lunch together from time to time. Best, Carol Kaye http://www.carolkaye.com/ http://www.experience.org --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Re: Rare Phil Received: 10/10/99 8:36 pm From: Pacific Ocean Bluto, wuxxxxxet.se To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Wow, Francesc, thanks for the info! >YOU'VE LOST THAT LOVIN' FEELIN' >takes 38-39 > >RIVER DEEP, MOUNTAIN HIGH >takes 1-8 Entire session Interesting. So Spector spent 39 (or more) takes on YLTLF but needed only *eight* for a satisfactory version of RDMH! Speaking of many takes, Carol Kaye, did you play on " California Girls"? I have a *take 44* (yes, 44!) on tape. Do you know if that was the final one or if Brian continued with even more takes? On another, but sort of related note, I bought a Walker Brothers compilation today titled "After The Lights Go Out". All great Spector-ish stuff of course, although Scott Walker's theatrical voice gets on my nerves after too many songs in a row. It's too goth :) T. --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Re: I Can Hear Music & Rare Phil Received: 10/10/99 8:36 pm From: Billy G. Spradlin, bgsprxxxxxhlink.net To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com >Billy G wrote: >>why wasn't "I Can Hear Music" on the box? > >Because the only issued recording by the Ronettes was not >produced by Phil Spector, but Jeff Barry and the ABKCO >recordings are only Phil Spector productions. I have never >heard whether Phil produced a version of I Can Her Music, >but probably not. Thanks for clearing that up. I have the song on tape and I have noticed that the production wasn't as "dense" sounding as Phil's other great productions for the Ronettes. Even the Beach Boys 1969 cover (produced by Carl Wilson) sounds fuller than Jeff Barry's production. It makes me wonder how successful the record would have been if Phil had produced it with a bigger production and a more upbeat tempo. >CHICO'S GIRL >take 1 >take 2- vocal take stereo >take 2- vocal take mono Is this the same song that "The Girls" released on Capitol in 65-66, produced by Steve Douglas? Billy G. Spradlin 29 Rim Road Kilgore, Texas 75662 Email: bgsprxxxxxhlink.net Homepage: http://home.earthlink.net/~bgspradlin/ --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: Re: Rare Phil Received: 10/10/99 8:36 pm From: chuck, chxxxxxo.com To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com Hello Francesc This is just too wonderful what you have. What an amazing post on an amazing list. Easy listening in the Big Easy Chuck Francesc Sole, xxxxx.es wrote: > To: Spectropop, spectxxxxxities.com > > Tobias asked for the availability of Phil bootlegs. A > couple of years ago I was lucky enough to find some > wonderful rare tapes of Phil working in the studio, called > "The Spector Anthology". > > This stuff ranks up right there with the incredible > Beatles or Beach Boys Unsurpassed Masters series --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- Subject: "Snowbug" (new High Llamas album) Received: 10/10/99 8:36 pm From: Pacific Ocean Bluto, wuxxxxxet.se To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com I listened to a promo of the new High Llamas album "Snowbug" today, and it's fantastic! Those of you who were turned off by the bleeping and blooping on "Cold & Bouncy", will *love* "Snowbug". It's a return to The Song, which wasn't always there on "C&B". I never understood what Sean O'Hagan meant with all the Brazilian influences because I couldn't hear them - it's almost like he started citing Brazilian stuff for the sake of people stop comparing the Llamas to the Beach Boys! - but "Snowbug" is the album that finally delivers those comparisons. It is definitely a High Llamas record - a cross between "Hawaii" and "Santa Barbara" maybe, but sounding quite a lot like Milton Nascimento's "Courage" (thank you, Larry :)). I don't think it should in any way be compared to the Beach Boys, but if it has to, it's to "Friends" and not "Pet Sounds". But "Snowbug" couldn't have been recorded in another year than 1998. The arrangements are of course just as lovely as always, with strings, harpsichords, steel drums, flutes and much more! Sorry for those of you who read this post on several lists. --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- End
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