This is my first post to the list though I have been
lurking for a couple weeks now.
My wife, daughter and I were watching this program on Vh-1
last night trying to figure out exactly how the positioning
was decided on the top 100 women. It didn't seem as if it
were limited to rock given some of the people we had seen.
We debated around a dozen names and came up with our top 5:
5) Billy Holiday
4) Diana Ross
3) Barbara S.
2) Madonna
1) Aretha
Honorable mention: Tina Turner, Ronnie Spector, Carole
King (writer and performer), Darlene Love, Dinah
Washington, Chrissie Hyde and a few more.
The beauty of those type of lists is always their openness
to debate. But they're still fun.
dave marshall
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Jan...Nashville
Received: 07/31/99 2:38 am
From: Carol Kaye, caroxxxxxhlink.net
To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com
Craig writes:
>I wonder though, how do you rate the Nashville studio
>musicians in comparison to your own group who worked in
>L.A.?? Both past and present. I would have thought that
>the musicianship would be of similar quality in both
>cities.
>
>I ask this as I think that many of the L.A. people
>migrated to Nashville to continue their careers. Joe
>Osborn, James Burton, and later on, Albert Lee and Dann
>Huff
Craig, yes I know a little about that, and even lived in
the Nashville area late '84 to Feb. '86, so do have a fair
understanding about the studio work there at that time.
Visited with a few of my old buddies there.
LA has music with multi-styles, and much more of a reserve
of many different kinds of experiences which (imo)
reflected in the vast array of varieties of music styles..
a much larger pool of huge talents in the many different
styles of music to draw on than say Nashville did (and does
even now - altho' they've drawn a lot of musicians from NY
and Florida, etc., I don't think the bulk have left NY to
move there).
For one, the group of us in the LA studios came from
mainly the big bands and finer jazz combos....something
not avail. in Nashville unfortunately....and practically
all stayed in LA and haven't moved to Nashville. BTW,
Burton was only in LA for a little while before he went on
the road w/Elvis, but did do quite a few dates in that
short-span as did Joe, same thing but Joe Osborn didn't do
any TV films nor movie scores.
You are speaking of James Burton, country player, Osborn,
a pop and another mainly country & blues & pop musician
and as I understand it, he was *too hip* for them down
there (just quoting someone, wasn't me who said that).
Jim Horn is still doing well down there, but really isn't
from the jazz or big band world that I speak about....
altho' he can hold his own for some fair amount of
blues-jazz etc. and is a good creator of lines etc. as is
Joe Osborn and Burton.
Al DeLory is down there, but last I heard, he has a
latin-jazz band playing live around there, not sure about
his studio work. Billy Strange, wonderful guitarist, but
not jazz (altho' he, like Glen Campbell, knows a few of
the jazz tunes, I'd say they're more country and rock etc.
but fantastic in their fields) is retired.
Out of the 350 or so successful LA studio musicians (and
50-60 of our group called the "clique") that's very few
and of course the ones who were not jazz or big-band, Glen,
Leon Russell, Mac are now stars and Larry Knechtel left
Nashville (not a jazz player but darned good pop pianist)
and lives on his ranch in Wash. sometimes traveling with
Bread again.
So you see the majority are mainly still in LA....these
are the musicians who grew up playing the standards, with
complex chords, with some who were jazz giants (you'd be
surprised at the numbers of fine jazz musicians, more like
almost 1/2 were stone-jazz men, finest).
And it took this kinds of improvisational creativity to
come up with the "head arrangements" that you constantly
have to do anyway in playing jazz (no-one were "actors" on
stage back then, people came to HEAR jazz, not "watch" it
like they do now....TV created today's visual audience,
radio created ours). Very easy for us....but hard for
musicians without that kind of intense experience.
Yes, I agree, there's a lot of fine musicians in Nashville,
always have been but not for the variety of styles
needed back in the 60s, from soul to rock to surf, to R&B,
to Motown to Pop, to latin-soul to gospel to teeny-bopper
stuff....we seemed to steal the hit-making label away from
NY even.
I was there, and it was amazing to watch but we didn't
have time to really muse about it....we were busy working
but I think a lot of it had something to do with great
sounds and basslines.
Something you don't have today....drums sound like
paper-bags and the ringing strings of the basses have no
definition like back then, nor the creative funky lines,
the 16ths etc. to support the band, bass is relegated back
to a "background" of sorts today.
And the songs back in the 60s were just as bad as they are
today....but engineering and lack of fine bass sounds/
creative lines plus the sound of the drums today has a LOT
to do with it as well as other factors like "let's make
money" is showing through some recordings - even "ego" is
showing through.....the ego today is just awesome in bands
and people seeking to become "stars"....it wasn't even a
thought back then.
Today's musicians are lacking in chordal training too...
playing a lot of note-scales (the young teachers grew up
on sparse-chordal rock and roll rather than the complex
multi-chordal and chordal movements of the standard tunes.
...which we ALL played by EAR) and are not into the
necessary chordal progressions which has EVERYTHING to do
with how to arrange a tune.
Bebop jazz was formed from CHORDAL TONES and pivotal b5
chordal ii-V7-I chordal progressions, never from
note-scales at all back in the 50s (just the opposite of
what is occurring today -- even Tom Scott, when I told him
the lack of good musical education out there was totally
shocked and said "well, everyone knows you have to know
your CHORD-TONES to play great jazz").
So no, I don't think musicians today have the opportunity
nor experience (and some are "well-educated" in arranging
etc., much moreso than we were) to do what our group could
quickly do back in the 60s.
Not trying to sound egotistical here, but describing the
experience it took BEFORE any of us were in the studios.
And the big-band experiences were phenonomenally GREAT.
It's just lately that "swing" has come back and from what
I see of it, while it's nice for the younger generation to
know that music, it almost seems "pseudo", not quite the
real thing I grew up dancing to and eventually being on
the road playing....reading charts, interpreting them,
feeling the groove of 17 or more players playing charts
together, etc. that sort of thing.
Military bands are a good source of experience and most of
our group of 350 or so fine studio musicians did come from
military bands, and talked fondly of those days and that
experience (especially the horn, reed, and percussionist/
drummer musicians).
So where are you going to find musicians today who had all
that experience *before* they ever saw the insides of
studios? That is what is lacking in the way of
creativeness everywhere imo.
We used to have to day "shhhh, don't tell anyone we play
jazz" on the rock dates.
Hi Doc! About Jan.....yes, he could write a few licks, but
no, not "scores" at all...he'd have gone into movie scoring
if he could have. The composers/arrangers of movies are now
all multi-millionaires with tremendous prestige attached.
He was not much of a composer from what I remembered -
good for the rock-surf styles of song-writing, we had to
interpret what he wanted and came up with our own lines,
etc. Brian Wilson heard the notes as a symphony, something
that while Jan was very talented, and good to work for, no,
he wasn't a bit like that, sorry.
I want to re-assure you that I think the world of Jan, and
he did strike us as being talented, more so than others
there, but I just didn't see "scores" like has been
reported at all. We still had to make up parts which he
liked or didn't like and we'd work to get it to his
satisfaction. We did the same thing for Phil, but his
stuff was more and more arranged very well by Jack Nitz.
But he still wanted some creativity from us as all the
others did too.
Only Brian Wilson didn't need our input like that....
sometimes he'd use someone's ideas (like on piano,
percussion, drums, guitar chordings, etc.) but never on
the bass except for one fill lick I got in on "Calif.
Girls".
Actually not many arrangers knew how to arrange for rock
at all at first, but slowly from the early chord charts
which we musicians would come up with our
instant-arrangements (people coming up with licks and
ideas, bouncing off of each other, it wasn't "well you do
this and I'll do that", you did it ALL by ear
simultaneously like you do in the finest jazz improvising,
no problem) and the arrangers got it together within 1-2-3
years very well but still needed us to both sightread
their charts and to invent something to even make the
recording better....the bottom line is that the record
companies needed HITS.
And we studio musicians were glad to use whatever we could
to get them hits so we could keep working "next year".
That's why you find pretty much the same 50-60 on many
different groups' hit recordings of the 60s.
Carol Kaye http://www.carolkaye.com/
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Monkees audition rejects
Received: 07/31/99 2:38 am
From: Glenn Sadin & Mariko Kusumoto,
glenn_mxxxxxhlink.net
To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com
Don lists some Monkees audition rejects:
>Keith Allison (Paul Revere & the Raiders)
>Stephen Stills
>Van Dyke Parks
>Harry Nilsson
>Danny Hutton (Three Dog Night)
>Jerry Yester (Lovin Spoonful and Association)
>Tim Rooney (Mickey Rooney's Son)
>Paul Williams
>Don Scardino (A TV and Film actor)
>Paul Peterson (played Jeff Stone on The Donna Reed Show
>and scored a top-10 hit in '63 with "My Dad")
>Bill Chadwick (Session guitar player and producer)
>John London (session bass player)
>Steve Young (Folk singer/songwriter, wrote "Seven
>Bridges Road" for the Eagles)
Interestingly, many of these folks later had associations
with the Monkees project. Stephen Stills (Peter Tork's old
pal from his Greenwich Village folkie days) played guitar
on several tracks on the Monkees' "Head" soundtrack LP.
Harry Nilsson wrote Monkees LP cuts "Cuddly Toy" and "
Daddy's Song," and according to Andrew Sandoval, there
exits a 1967 demo tape of Nilsson being backed by Nesmith,
Tork and Dolenz, "Headquarters"-style. Tim Rooney is one of
the stars of the legendary 1966 garage punk b-movie, "Riot
On Sunset Strip" (no Monkees connections, but cool anyway!).
Paul Williams wrote the non-LP b-side of the "Listen to
the Band" 45, "Someday Man." Bill Chadwick wrote several
songs for the Monkees and toured in their back-up band (I
think). He also worked with Nesmith on "Elephant Parts" in
the '80s. John London, an old friend of Nesmith's from
Texas, later was a member of Michael Nesmith & the First
National Band.
Glenn
Glenn Sadin
Guitarist/Vocalist/Songwriter for THE BERKELEY SQUIRES:
http://www.termites.com/BerkeleySquires.html
Read about Japanese pop from the '50s & '60s!
NIHON NO POPS: http://home.earthlink.net/~glenn_mariko/nihon.htm
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Monkees Wannabes
Received: 07/31/99 2:38 am
From: Tom Simon, txxxxxcom
To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com
Don Richardson had an interesting post about prominent
musicians and others who auditioned for the Monkees before
they became well known, and he asked if there miight be any
other names to add to the list.
It seems to me I heard that at one point Charles Manson
had wanted to be a Monkee. Can anyone confirm this?
I am one Monkees fan who is glad that he was not chosen.
Tom Simon
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Re: intoxica
Received: 07/31/99 2:38 am
From: DJ JimmyB, DJJimxxxxxcom
To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com
In a message dated 7/27/99 8:02:55 PM, you wrote:
>There's a shop in portobello road called 'intoxica'. They
>specialize in 2nd hand vinyl and have a large selection of
>girl group/singers lps and 7"s. They have a web site:
>
>intxxxxxxica.demon.co.uk
>or email
>axxxxxxica.demon.co.uk
They also advertise in a 'zine called "Cool And Strange
Music" published quarterly out of Seattle. Highly
recommended for all vintage music lovers and particularly
those prone to pop. ....Jimmy Botticelli
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: shame on Phil
Received: 07/31/99 2:38 am
From: john rausch,xxxxx.net
To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com
VH1's ``100 Greatest Women of Rock & Roll,''
Ronnie Spector and the Ronettes came in at No. 67, but Phil Spector --
the group's Svengali and Spector's former husband -- refused to let
VH1 play any of the songs. (A call to Phil Spector's office was not
returned.)
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Shameless Self Promotion
Received: 07/31/99 2:38 am
From: PONAK, DAVID, david.xxxxxcom
To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com
Hi folks,
A quick note to mention that my old radio show (previously
on KCRW) called "The Nice Age" is returning, via internet
radio. The site is called www.spikeradio.com and it starts
August 1. My show will "air" (that word doesn't really
apply anymore does it? Maybe I should say "stream") Monday
and Wednesday evenings from 8-10PM. (Pacific Time) My wacky
mix includes many Spectropop faves such as Roger Nichols,
Beach Boys, Paul Williams as well as plenty of cool
current music with a soft/retro aesthetic.
I'm going to mention 2 artists that I've been obsessing on
that I've never seen mentioned here. The first is Rupert
Holmes. His first 3 albums, ("Rupert Holmes," "Widescreen,
" "And Singles" all on Epic) are classic pop gems. "
Annabella" (from "Singles") is pure Pet Sounds. There's 2
CDs on Varese Vintage, one a compilation from the 3 albums
("The Epoch Collection") and a reissue of "Widescreen." The
productions gets a little 70's at times, but the records
are still great.
Secondly, my most played record of the past 2 weeks has
been Scott Walker's "Till The Band Comes In." Amazingly
lush orchestrations, great hooks, beautiful vocals. (Think
Jim Morrison meets Frank Sinatra.)
Later,
David
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Titus Turner/Lloyd Price
Received: 07/31/99 2:38 am
From: Richard Globman, rglxxxxxomm.net
To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com
Well, as usual, I was wrong and Dave Feldman was right...
this now makes 204 consecutive times that I've been wrong.
I did find out that Titus Turner is (was) real. Born in
1933 (Atlanta) and died in 1984 (also Atlanta). While he
did record sporadically in the '50's, he was best known as
a songwriter...his specialty was jump blues and R&B.
Although I couldn't find "I Want To Get Married" or "I'm
Gonna Get Married" on a list of his recordings, I will
assume that he did cut it at some point and that is the
recording that Dave heard on the Dick Clark show.
Lloyd Price (1933-) recorded "I'm Gonna Get Married" in
1959. It hit #3 on the Billboard pop charts and #1 on the
R&B charts. Price is a member of the R&R Hall of Fame.
As always, I stand corrected.
DICKYG
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: To Bob Alcivar
Received: 07/31/99 2:38 am
From: Bruno Wintzel, wuxxxxxet.se
To: Spectropop List, spectxxxxxities.com
I just got back from vacation and have only scanned
through the tons of unread e-mails but it looks like
nobody has replied re: Bob Alcivar's question about the
5D's "There Never Was A Day". You say you can't even
remember the song title. No, you are neither bonkers nor
insane, the song does exist and you did have a hand in the
arranging! I've got the group's "Living Together Growing
Together" LP in front of me right now and the third track
on side B says:
"'There Never Was A Day'...Arranged by Bob Alcivar, Bill
Holman & Bones Howe..."
Does this refresh your memory, Bob? I believe the LP came
out in 1972 or 1973. Pardon my poor English, I'm really
tired right now.
I hope this information will help you remember this
fantastic song!
Tobias
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
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