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Spectropop V#0298

  • From: The Spectropop Group
  • Date: 07/31/99

  • __________________________________________________________
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       Volume #0298                           July 31, 1999   
     Here are the great songs. The unbelievable excitement... 
    Subject:     a travesty
    Received:    07/31/99 2:38 am
    From:        Gaylord Fields,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Will wrote:
    > There's is a VH1 poll going on now ranking Rock's best
    > women. The Ronettes have 5 votes, the Shirelles, none,
    > Carole King, none, Tina Turner, 02 , Diana Ross 430+! What's
    > going on? I'm sorry, but I don't think she deserves to be
    > number 1 while Aretha Franklin and Dusty Sprinfield have a
    > paltry 3-4 votes each! I hope all Spectropopers go to vote
    > for this poll. Choose someone who you feel best represent
    > women in rock. I added the Chiffons name onto the list as
    > my vote out of principle (I love 'em so much I just wanted
    > to see there name in print!) but I think Spectropoppers
    > should make our voice count and choose one artist to
    > support. Check the list and write back with you nomination.
    > Even if the Ronettes, Aretha or Dionne Warwick don't
    > overtake Diana, they desertve much more praise than
    > they're getting!
    Hi, Will, and all other Spectropoppers. I'm new to this 
    wonderful list, and wish that my first posting were a 
    little more confirming. But i don't know if it really 
    matters that VH1 needs to know what i think about my 
    favorite female performers.
    What i mean is that i don't really need validation by VH1 
    or Viacom Inc. or the hundreds of nonserious music fans 
    who voted for "Call Me Miss" Ross over the (in the opinion
    of most people on this list, i presume) superior talent 
    mentioned by Will. I honestly don't care if Diana Ross or 
    Joe E. Ross wins this nonscientifically administered 
    contest. After all, she is more well known to the average 
    VH1 viewer (note that i don't say "listener"), so the 
    results are no surprise to this boy. She's also the most 
    recognizable name on the list, which is how they choose 
    the winner on this survey. If the "poll" were more 
    open-ended -- for example, if you were given a blank where
    you would write in a name -- the results would be more 
    democratic, and understandable. In other words, it's 
    Now, if a _Spectropop_ survey turned up the same results, 
    then i would be up at arms and searching for hackers in 
    the system.
    What this list does, and does well (which is why i joined 
    it) is passionately exult the music of the most creative 
    decade for pop, made by hundreds of talented people, both 
    famous and obscure. And i'm exceedingly happy to find 
    like-minded people who share my passion for this music. 
    And that's good enough for me.
    Curmudgeonly yours, 
    PS: Upon second thought, i _would_ care if Joe E. Ross won. 
    Has anyone out there ever heard his great record, "Ooh, 
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     RE: Women in Rock
    Received:    07/31/99 2:38 am
    From:        David Marshall, DMarxxxxxLC.UT.US
    To:          Spectropop List,
    This is my first post to the list though I have been 
    lurking for a couple weeks now.
    My wife, daughter and I were watching this program on Vh-1
    last night trying to figure out exactly how the positioning
    was decided on the top 100 women. It didn't seem as if it 
    were limited to rock given some of the people we had seen.
    We debated around a dozen names and came up with our top 5:
    5) Billy Holiday
    4) Diana Ross
    3) Barbara S.
    2) Madonna
    1) Aretha
    Honorable mention: Tina Turner, Ronnie Spector, Carole 
    King (writer and performer), Darlene Love, Dinah 
    Washington, Chrissie Hyde and a few more.
    The beauty of those type of lists is always their openness
    to debate. But they're still fun.
    dave marshall
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Jan...Nashville
    Received:    07/31/99 2:38 am
    From:        Carol Kaye,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Craig writes:  
    >I wonder though, how do you rate the Nashville studio 
    >musicians in comparison to your own group who worked in 
    >L.A.?? Both past and present. I would have thought that 
    >the musicianship would be of similar quality in both 
    >I ask this as I think that many of the L.A. people 
    >migrated to Nashville to continue their careers. Joe 
    >Osborn, James Burton, and later on, Albert Lee and Dann 
    Craig, yes I know a little about that, and even lived in 
    the Nashville area late '84 to Feb. '86, so do have a fair
    understanding about the studio work there at that time. 
    Visited with a few of my old buddies there.
    LA has music with multi-styles, and much more of a reserve
    of many different kinds of experiences which (imo) 
    reflected in the vast array of varieties of music styles..
    a much larger pool of huge talents in the many different
    styles of music to draw on than say Nashville did (and does
    even now - altho' they've drawn a lot of musicians from NY 
    and Florida, etc., I don't think the bulk have left NY to 
    move there). 
    For one, the group of us in the LA studios came from 
    mainly the big bands and finer jazz combos....something 
    not avail. in Nashville unfortunately....and practically 
    all stayed in LA and haven't moved to Nashville. BTW, 
    Burton was only in LA for a little while before he went on
    the road w/Elvis, but did do quite a few dates in that 
    short-span as did Joe, same thing but Joe Osborn didn't do
    any TV films nor movie scores.
    You are speaking of James Burton, country player, Osborn, 
    a pop and another mainly country & blues & pop musician 
    and as I understand it, he was *too hip* for them down 
    there (just quoting someone, wasn't me who said that). 
    Jim Horn is still doing well down there, but really isn't 
    from the jazz or big band world that I speak about....
    altho' he can hold his own for some fair amount of 
    blues-jazz etc. and is a good creator of lines etc. as is 
    Joe Osborn and Burton.
    Al DeLory is down there, but last I heard, he has a 
    latin-jazz band playing live around there, not sure about 
    his studio work. Billy Strange, wonderful guitarist, but 
    not jazz (altho' he, like Glen Campbell, knows a few of 
    the jazz tunes, I'd say they're more country and rock etc.
    but fantastic in their fields) is retired. 
    Out of the 350 or so successful LA studio musicians (and 
    50-60 of our group called the "clique") that's very few 
    and of course the ones who were not jazz or big-band, Glen, 
    Leon Russell, Mac are now stars and Larry Knechtel left 
    Nashville (not a jazz player but darned good pop pianist) 
    and lives on his ranch in Wash. sometimes traveling with 
    Bread again.
    So you see the majority are mainly still in LA....these 
    are the musicians who grew up playing the standards, with 
    complex chords, with some who were jazz giants (you'd be 
    surprised at the numbers of fine jazz musicians, more like
    almost 1/2 were stone-jazz men, finest). 
    And it took this kinds of improvisational creativity to 
    come up with the "head arrangements" that you constantly 
    have to do anyway in playing jazz (no-one were "actors" on
    stage back then, people came to HEAR jazz, not "watch" it 
    like they do now....TV created today's visual audience, 
    radio created ours). Very easy for us....but hard for 
    musicians without that kind of intense experience.
    Yes, I agree, there's a lot of fine musicians in Nashville, 
    always have been but not for the variety of styles 
    needed back in the 60s, from soul to rock to surf, to R&B,
    to Motown to Pop, to latin-soul to gospel to teeny-bopper 
    stuff....we seemed to steal the hit-making label away from
    NY even. 
    I was there, and it was amazing to watch but we didn't 
    have time to really muse about it....we were busy working 
    but I think a lot of it had something to do with great 
    sounds and basslines. 
    Something you don't have today....drums sound like 
    paper-bags and the ringing strings of the basses have no 
    definition like back then, nor the creative funky lines, 
    the 16ths etc. to support the band, bass is relegated back
    to a "background" of sorts today. 
    And the songs back in the 60s were just as bad as they are
    today....but engineering and lack of fine bass sounds/
    creative lines plus the sound of the drums today has a LOT
    to do with it as well as other factors like "let's make 
    money" is showing through some recordings - even "ego" is 
    showing through.....the ego today is just awesome in bands
    and people seeking to become "stars" wasn't even a 
    thought back then.
    Today's musicians are lacking in chordal training too...
    playing a lot of note-scales (the young teachers grew up 
    on sparse-chordal rock and roll rather than the complex 
    multi-chordal and chordal movements of the standard tunes.
    ...which we ALL played by EAR) and are not into the 
    necessary chordal progressions which has EVERYTHING to do 
    with how to arrange a tune. 
    Bebop jazz was formed from CHORDAL TONES and pivotal b5 
    chordal ii-V7-I chordal progressions, never from 
    note-scales at all back in the 50s (just the opposite of 
    what is occurring today -- even Tom Scott, when I told him
    the lack of good musical education out there was totally 
    shocked and said "well, everyone knows you have to know 
    your CHORD-TONES to play great jazz").
    So no, I don't think musicians today have the opportunity 
    nor experience (and some are "well-educated" in arranging 
    etc., much moreso than we were) to do what our group could
    quickly do back in the 60s. 
    Not trying to sound egotistical here, but describing the 
    experience it took BEFORE any of us were in the studios. 
    And the big-band experiences were phenonomenally GREAT. 
    It's just lately that "swing" has come back and from what 
    I see of it, while it's nice for the younger generation to
    know that music, it almost seems "pseudo", not quite the 
    real thing I grew up dancing to and eventually being on 
    the road playing....reading charts, interpreting them, 
    feeling the groove of 17 or more players playing charts 
    together, etc. that sort of thing. 
    Military bands are a good source of experience and most of
    our group of 350 or so fine studio musicians did come from 
    military bands, and talked fondly of those days and that 
    experience (especially the horn, reed, and percussionist/
    drummer musicians). 
    So where are you going to find musicians today who had all
    that experience *before* they ever saw the insides of 
    studios? That is what is lacking in the way of 
    creativeness everywhere imo.
    We used to have to day "shhhh, don't tell anyone we play 
    jazz" on the rock dates.
    Hi Doc! About Jan.....yes, he could write a few licks, but
    no, not "scores" at all...he'd have gone into movie scoring
    if he could have. The composers/arrangers of movies are now
    all multi-millionaires with tremendous prestige attached. 
    He was not much of a composer from what I remembered - 
    good for the rock-surf styles of song-writing, we had to 
    interpret what he wanted and came up with our own lines, 
    etc. Brian Wilson heard the notes as a symphony, something
    that while Jan was very talented, and good to work for, no,
    he wasn't a bit like that, sorry. 
    I want to re-assure you that I think the world of Jan, and
    he did strike us as being talented, more so than others 
    there, but I just didn't see "scores" like has been 
    reported at all. We still had to make up parts which he 
    liked or didn't like and we'd work to get it to his 
    satisfaction. We did the same thing for Phil, but his 
    stuff was more and more arranged very well by Jack Nitz. 
    But he still wanted some creativity from us as all the 
    others did too. 
    Only Brian Wilson didn't need our input like that.... 
    sometimes he'd use someone's ideas (like on piano, 
    percussion, drums, guitar chordings, etc.) but never on 
    the bass except for one fill lick I got in on "Calif. 
    Actually not many arrangers knew how to arrange for rock 
    at all at first, but slowly from the early chord charts 
    which we musicians would come up with our 
    instant-arrangements (people coming up with licks and 
    ideas, bouncing off of each other, it wasn't "well you do 
    this and I'll do that", you did it ALL by ear 
    simultaneously like you do in the finest jazz improvising,
    no problem) and the arrangers got it together within 1-2-3 
    years very well but still needed us to both sightread 
    their charts and to invent something to even make the 
    recording better....the bottom line is that the record 
    companies needed HITS. 
    And we studio musicians were glad to use whatever we could
    to get them hits so we could keep working "next year". 
    That's why you find pretty much the same 50-60 on many 
    different groups' hit recordings of the 60s. 
    Carol Kaye
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Monkees audition rejects
    Received:    07/31/99 2:38 am
    From:        Glenn Sadin & Mariko Kusumoto,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Don lists some Monkees audition rejects:
    >Keith Allison (Paul Revere & the Raiders)
    >Stephen Stills
    >Van Dyke Parks
    >Harry Nilsson
    >Danny Hutton (Three Dog Night)
    >Jerry Yester (Lovin Spoonful and Association)
    >Tim Rooney (Mickey Rooney's Son)
    >Paul Williams
    >Don Scardino (A TV and Film actor)
    >Paul Peterson (played Jeff Stone on The Donna Reed Show
    >and scored a top-10 hit in '63 with "My Dad")
    >Bill Chadwick (Session guitar player and producer)
    >John London (session bass player)
    >Steve Young (Folk singer/songwriter, wrote "Seven
    >Bridges Road" for the Eagles)
    Interestingly, many of these folks later had associations 
    with the Monkees project. Stephen Stills (Peter Tork's old
    pal from his Greenwich Village folkie days) played guitar 
    on several tracks on the Monkees' "Head" soundtrack LP. 
    Harry Nilsson wrote Monkees LP cuts "Cuddly Toy" and "
    Daddy's Song," and according to Andrew Sandoval, there 
    exits a 1967 demo tape of Nilsson being backed by Nesmith,
    Tork and Dolenz, "Headquarters"-style. Tim Rooney is one of
    the stars of the legendary 1966 garage punk b-movie, "Riot 
    On Sunset Strip" (no Monkees connections, but cool anyway!). 
    Paul Williams wrote the non-LP b-side of the "Listen to
    the Band" 45, "Someday Man." Bill Chadwick wrote several 
    songs for the Monkees and toured in their back-up band (I 
    think). He also worked with Nesmith on "Elephant Parts" in
    the '80s. John London, an old friend of Nesmith's from 
    Texas, later was a member of Michael Nesmith & the First 
    National Band. 
    Glenn Sadin
    Guitarist/Vocalist/Songwriter for THE BERKELEY SQUIRES:
    Read about Japanese pop from the '50s & '60s!
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Monkees Wannabes
    Received:    07/31/99 2:38 am
    From:        Tom Simon, txxxxxcom
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Don Richardson had an interesting post about prominent 
    musicians and others who auditioned for the Monkees before
    they became well known, and he asked if there miight be any
    other names to add to the list.
    It seems to me I heard that at one point Charles Manson 
    had wanted to be a Monkee. Can anyone confirm this?
    I am one Monkees fan who is glad that he was not chosen. 
    Tom Simon
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Re:  intoxica
    Received:    07/31/99 2:38 am
    From:        DJ JimmyB, DJJimxxxxxcom
    To:          Spectropop List,
    In a message dated 7/27/99 8:02:55 PM, you wrote:
    >There's a shop in portobello road called 'intoxica'. They 
    >specialize in 2nd hand vinyl and have a large selection of
    >girl group/singers lps and 7"s. They have a web site:
    >or email
    They also advertise in a 'zine called "Cool And Strange 
    Music" published quarterly out of Seattle. Highly 
    recommended for all vintage music lovers and particularly 
    those prone to pop. ....Jimmy Botticelli
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     shame on Phil
    Received:    07/31/99 2:38 am
    From:        john rausch,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    VH1's ``100 Greatest Women of Rock & Roll,''
    Ronnie Spector and the Ronettes came in at No. 67, but Phil Spector --
    the group's Svengali and Spector's former husband -- refused to let
    VH1 play any of the songs. (A call to Phil Spector's office was not
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Shameless Self Promotion
    Received:    07/31/99 2:38 am
    From:        PONAK, DAVID, david.xxxxxcom
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Hi folks,
    A quick note to mention that my old radio show (previously
    on KCRW) called "The Nice Age" is returning, via internet 
    radio. The site is called and it starts
    August 1. My show will "air" (that word doesn't really 
    apply anymore does it? Maybe I should say "stream") Monday
    and Wednesday evenings from 8-10PM. (Pacific Time) My wacky
    mix includes many Spectropop faves such as Roger Nichols, 
    Beach Boys, Paul Williams as well as plenty of cool 
    current music with a soft/retro aesthetic. 
    I'm going to mention 2 artists that I've been obsessing on
    that I've never seen mentioned here. The first is Rupert 
    Holmes. His first 3 albums, ("Rupert Holmes," "Widescreen,
    " "And Singles" all on Epic) are classic pop gems. "
    Annabella" (from "Singles") is pure Pet Sounds. There's 2 
    CDs on Varese Vintage, one a compilation from the 3 albums
    ("The Epoch Collection") and a reissue of "Widescreen." The
    productions gets a little 70's at times, but the records 
    are still great.
    Secondly, my most played record of the past 2 weeks has 
    been Scott Walker's "Till The Band Comes In." Amazingly 
    lush orchestrations, great hooks, beautiful vocals. (Think
    Jim Morrison meets Frank Sinatra.) 
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Titus Turner/Lloyd Price
    Received:    07/31/99 2:38 am
    From:        Richard Globman,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Well, as usual, I was wrong and Dave Feldman was right...
    this now makes 204 consecutive times that I've been wrong.
    I did find out that Titus Turner is (was) real. Born in 
    1933 (Atlanta) and died in 1984 (also Atlanta). While he 
    did record sporadically in the '50's, he was best known as
    a songwriter...his specialty was jump blues and R&B. 
    Although I couldn't find "I Want To Get Married" or "I'm 
    Gonna Get Married" on a list of his recordings, I will 
    assume that he did cut it at some point and that is the 
    recording that Dave heard on the Dick Clark show.
    Lloyd Price (1933-) recorded "I'm Gonna Get Married" in 
    1959. It hit #3 on the Billboard pop charts and #1 on the 
    R&B charts. Price is a member of the R&R Hall of Fame.
    As always, I stand corrected.
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     To Bob Alcivar
    Received:    07/31/99 2:38 am
    From:        Bruno Wintzel,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    I just got back from vacation and have only scanned 
    through the tons of unread e-mails but it looks like 
    nobody has replied re: Bob Alcivar's question about the 
    5D's "There Never Was A Day". You say you can't even 
    remember the song title. No, you are neither bonkers nor 
    insane, the song does exist and you did have a hand in the
    arranging! I've got the group's "Living Together Growing 
    Together" LP in front of me right now and the third track 
    on side B says:
    "'There Never Was A Day'...Arranged by Bob Alcivar, Bill 
    Holman & Bones Howe..."
    Does this refresh your memory, Bob? I believe the LP came 
    out in 1972 or 1973. Pardon my poor English, I'm really 
    tired right now. 
    I hope this information will help you remember this 
    fantastic song!
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

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