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Spectropop V#0214

  • From: The Spectropop Group
  • Date: 01/20/99

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       Volume #0214                        January 20, 1999   
                 Always be true to Rock n' Roll and           
               Rock n' Roll will always be true to you        
    Subject:     update
    Received:    01/20/99 3:44 am
    From:        Barbara Alston, BARBTXXXXXXXXom
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Hi all,
    Just got through trying to update myself on all the newsletters 
    I've missed since December. Wonderful having Carol Kaye with us.
    What a pleasure reading her memories. She is truly phenomenal!
    Will, yes, Dee Dee owns the name now and has the only set of 
    Crystals working to my knowledge. She has never stopped. I've 
    never had the pleasure of seeing her new group but I've always 
    wished her well. I will keep you apprised of our proposed 
    reunion this coming summer.
    If I failed to say this before, HAPPY NEW YEAR everyone!
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Earl vs. Hal etc.
    Received:    01/20/99 3:44 am
    From:        Carol Kaye,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Frank wrote: 
    >My question to Carol: Now both you and Jack Nitzsche (in 
    >Goldmine years ago) have made statements apparently favoring 
    >Earl Palmer over Hal Blaine as all-time best studio drummer. 
    >I've listened to them both extensively, and I'd tend to give Hal
    >the edge. I could be way off base here, Carol....
    Frank, that's just personal taste, the ones you prefer in 
    drummers that's all. I liked Earl's jazz approach, and yes, he 
    played the tune probably even more than Hal (still does at 
    Chadney's here in No. Hollywood), as for the "arrangement of the
    But no, you're right, he wasn't quite the rock drummer that Hal 
    was (imo), but he played just as hard when the tune needed it. 
    And Earl did some fine rock hits too (no, not near the number 
    Hal did).
    "Spanish Eyes" was a soft rock-pop number. It didn't require the
    big boom-boom of the Beach Boys sounds. Al Martino is sort of a 
    crooner. Earl played what was appropriate. We can all show off 
    on our instruments, but what was more important was to record 
    what was required to get the tune a hit -- that's what we were 
    all hired for.
    Hal was very creative in the command of the tune, and he was 
    hired for his creativity and his sounds. He had the best drum 
    sounds for rock and most pop, true. It was a matter of styles 
    that got either Earl or Hal hired.
    I did a lot of fine pop-rock hits with Earl -- Supremes, some of
    those as well as things like the Frankie Laine big hits. Earl is 
    on one of the Beach Boys things even. He did many hits for Phil 
    Spector, Lou Rawls (played hard too), Vickie Carr...lots of that
    kind of stuff; the Dot Records hits, most of the Sam Cooke hits -
    - those are pop, not R&B or soul recordings. And yes, I also did
    a lot of pop-rock hits w/Hal, surf recordings w/Hal too.
    Hal invented the multi-tomtoms, and he used them extensively 
    (others copied him on that) and I feel Hal is responsible for the
    surf-rock kind of drumming, all that style, a commendable feat. 
    Hal did the 16th-note tomtom fills with those styles whereas 
    Earl did the paradiddle type of tomtom fills, equally as 
    inventive; it just depended on the styles of music you liked.
    No, I'm not putting Hal down at all, he was a giant back then, 
    and did his share of creating, a huge share of drumming/
    inventing, using stylistic approaches. But Earl did too -- 
    they're both masters. Earl did a lot of things that Hal probably
    could come close to doing and vice-versa, but it was just a 
    matter of preference of the producers/arrangers etc.
    Hal could have become a fine jazz drummer, and indeed he did 
    quite a few jazz gigs in the 50s, but he just never played 
    extensively in the hard-core jazz clubs like Earl did (it didn't
    pay well) -- Hal did more of the road/big-band things, but we did
    play some nice semi-jazz gigs together for H.B. Barnum.
    Earl did come from some deep jazz roots and had been a jazz 
    drummer during his early recording days (he recorded in New 
    Orleans since 1949) of recording funk and some jazz stuff -- he
    did James Brown and Fats Domino down there in those times, others. 
    His book "Backbeat" is being released March 1st, Smithsonian 
    Press. It will reveal so much about his career and life.
    There was a drummer by the name of Sharkey Hall, and another 
    fine drummer by the name of Jesse Sailes (Jesse played with the 
    Teddy Buckner fine dixieland band here) who were fine studio r&b, 
    soul and yes, rock drummers too.
    There were even more like Jack Sperling (now w/Les Brown), 
    Jackie Mills, Alvin Stoller, Louis Bellson, all who did a few 
    rock recordings back then. I was on a date with Shelly Manne, 
    who was strictly a jazz drummer (and a movie drummer, I worked 
    constantly with Shelly at the studios) who didn't actually know 
    the right rock beats when we did something for Nancy Wilson who 
    was trying for a gospel-rock-pop hit.
    I showed him quickly (behind the fence, no-one saw this) and he 
    picked it up and started to play rock -- boom! He had almost 
    given up, but then he really got it.
    Doc Rock, oh excuse me; I understand about Sue Thompson then. 
    Yes, that can happen -- we used to kid about Eddie Fisher too a 
    little. Some singers can have everything else together and never
    quite get their meter down.
    About the "grimacing", if you want to see a good show of that, 
    go see Chuck Berghofer (the string bassist on "Boots" at the 
    beginning w/slides) play! Jazz musicians like Chuck are very 
    well-know for their grimacing -- they have NO IDEA they're doing
    it, it's an expression on your face because you're ONLY thinking 
    of the music and concentrating on it (not "thinking" as the 
    general public knows it, but self-expression).
    Chuck's a beautiful person too, so he knows when we're sort of 
    smiling at him, we're his pals -- he's the best! A fine jazz 
    string bassist (he's on the movie "Bird" overdubbed on some cuts) 
    who records with some jazz groups like Pete Jolly's around LA 
    here, as well as a fine elec. bassist too (theme of Barney 
    When I teach, I teach people to read rhythms by NOT patting the 
    rhythm with their hands (just the opposite of some teachers), 
    but saying it ONLY with their mouths. When you "speak" on your 
    instrument, you are VERBALLY communicating, therefore, you're 
    putting a lot of facial expressions into your playing.
    This is not phony, but is part of your expression of playing and
    you'd do that even if you played in your front room.
    BTW, I was probably one of the few of our group of studio 
    musicians who did get known in the 70s (and subsequently 
    forgotten in the 80s) as I was voted #3 in all the polls in the 
    magazines from the 1-1/2 years of playing live jazz with the 
    great Hampton Hawes.
    Many had come to me for lessons in 1969/70. I was kind of tired 
    of recording rock and wanted to teach again, and I tho't if I 
    wrote some books that would help. Then it all took off.
    I published my books and then the fine Joe Pass books too 1970 
    on, my publishing co., Gwyn Publishing, just took off like a 
    son-of-a-gun, was shipping out 10s of 1,000s of books.
    They're still selling but not as hot of course. I have some 
    video courses out now and have sent out the packs always with 
    some written history of our part in the 60s hits. Started it all
    on my kitchen table.
    Alfred Publishing now owns what is left of my once-huge book 
    catalog -- yes, it's HARD WORK, but I was able to pay Joe Pass 
    and others double royalties, and proudly so. I thought (and still 
    think) that musicians should get the bulk of the monies in 
    publishing! They work hard for it. 
    Carol Kaye
    P.S. I just bumped into the Turtles drummer, Terry Hand, today. 
    He was in awe of both Hal and Earl equally. He spoke about them 
    in the same breath of respect.
    Nice guy Terry is (he's doing some experimental recording right 
    now). He spoke about the sides I had played bass on with the 
    Turtles too. I knew I had done some - it was in my log.
    Terry says he still misses the 60s, the sound of the 60s and we 
    spoke about the spirit, and the actual sounds of the drums (and 
    bass etc.) back then (vs. the paper-bag sounds of today). He's 
    like everyone else who knew both Hal and Earl, they are thought 
    of as the best, yet each a little different in their styles.
    Carol Kaye
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Sue Thompson
    Received:    01/20/99 3:44 am
    From:        Shelby Riggs,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Doc Rock,
    You are partially correct in your evaluation of Sue Thompson,
    (real name, Eva Sue McKee). Sue was born on 7-19-25, not 1926. 
    Sue today is 73, and will be 74 on 7-19-99. Sue's a very close 
    friend of my wife & myself, and she is one of the nicest ladies 
    that I have had the pleasure to know. Sue has forgotten more
    about the music industry than most people ever knew. She still 
    performs occasionally, and is married to to Ted Serna. She has 
    known Ted since her high school days. She finally found the 
    right man after 3 bad marriages. If you would like Sue's home 
    phone #, I will gladly give it to you.
    Shelby A. Riggs II
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Uncollected Ronnie
    Received:    01/19/99 8:01 am
    From:        IAC,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    John -
    >lovely la-de-day -ronnie spector (another apple records acetate
    >also with an alternate title"loverly laddy day")
    John, the old UK Phil Spector Appreciation Society Newsletters 
    from the late 70s/early 80s mention this track a few times and 
    intimate the song is actually the Toni Wine/Irwin Levine number 
    "Love Me Like You're Gonna Lose Me", which the Chiffons recorded
    and which has a b-vox chorus " me la-de-day...." Know 
    any more on this?
    Also, on the last list, I also mentioned the alternate Philles 
    version of "I Wish I Never Saw The Sunshine" and said I thought 
    it could've been Bob Crewe - as you pointed out, I should've 
    said Jeff Barry.
    Ian Chapman
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     In Concert With The Four Seasons - The Early Years
    Sent:        01/21/19 6:55 pm
    Received:    01/20/99 5:36 am
    From:        Paul Urbahns, PaulurbXXXXXXXXom
    To:          Spectropop List,
    I just picked up a new release at Wal Mart (less than $6) with 
    the title: InConcert With The Four Seasons - The Early Years. 
    The tracks and timings are:
    1. By Myself (2:42)
    2. Jada (1:22)
    3. We Three (2:26)
    4. Day In, Day Out (4:36)
    5. My Mother's Eyes (5:41)
    6. Mack The Knife (9:51)
    7. Comma Si Bella (4:02)
    8. Brotherhood Of Man (2:59)
    9.Blues In The Night (3:14)
    10. Just In Time (4:02)
    11. I Can Dream, Can't I (4:56)
    This appears to be basically the same album as The Four Seasons 
    Live! issued in 1965. Later parts were reissued on the Pickwick/
    Sears labels as "The Brotherhood Of Man". I did a discography 
    quite a few years ago, but I don't have it handy. The two main 
    cuts left off the Vee Jay album are introduction of the group 
    and Little Boy In Grown Up Clothes. I have always considered 
    this a fabricated album by Vee Jay. The group performed in a 
    Letterman style, but the medleys and group introuction track 
    always gave it an air of legitimacy. Now, what do the experts on
    this list say? By the way the CD is well worth the $6. I just 
    wish they had left off the Beatlemania screaming.
    Paul Urbahns
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Loudness in studios/Bacharach/Harpers Bizarre
    Received:    01/20/99 11:00 am
    From:        Wonky Alice,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Here's a couple of things I was thinking of which don't really 
    have anything to do with each other :)
    * Whenever I listen to Phil Spector and turn up the volume, the 
    sound is sooo huge and enormous. Well, we of course know he used
    lots of reverb, compression and 158,718,571 guitars and  pianos 
    to achieve that sound. What I wonder is how important the pure 
    LOUDNESS in the recording studio was for this sound. Carol? I 
    know myself that certain sounds can't be achieved unless you crank 
    up all the instruments to 11. Did those Spector sessions tend to be 
    louder than all the other 'normal' pop and rock sessions?
    Related to this, and as Spector used headphones extensively, was
    it ever discussed back in the sixties how loud music could damage
    hearing? Of course, today we have tons of networks for people 
    who suffer from Tinnitus and similar ear diseases. What was it like 
    * Burt Bacharach....I have two of his lesser known albums, 
    Futures" and "Woman". I think they're from the late seventies. 
    What do you listees think of them? I really have a hard time 
    getting into them because they sound a bit dull and uninspired...
    there are several flashes of his greatness but most of it 
    actually sound...bland...anyone agree or disagree?
    * Harpers Bizarre's album from the midseventies (the title 
    escapes me right now) - is it different or just as good as their
    sixties records like Feelin' Groovy and Anything Goes? I need 
    some input on this album as I can only find it as a very 
    expensive Japanese import. Oh yeah, I think it's called As Times
    Goes By...
    All right, all right.
    Tobias [no my real name is NOT Wonky Alice :))
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     ronnie spector new cds...& meeting phil spector!
    Received:    01/20/99 3:44 am
    From:        Rough Trade Shop,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    I've been lurking on this list for a while and it's great! Just 
    thought I'd say that I work for a small independent record shop 
    in London, England (rough trade), and we've got copies of that 
    Ronnie Spector cd single in stock. I personally think it's 
    really good-her voice is great!!! I would buy it myself but I 
    don't have a cd player!!!!! For me to send to copies to the 
    States the total cost would be 5.83 pounds sterling.
    Also I saw her live at a small club in Camden just before Xmas.
    ...she was excellent!!!!!!!! The backing band was small but 
    managed the Spector sound pretty well. She did a couple of duets
    with Joey Ramone and one with Beth Orton. She went down amazingly
    well and did a great Xmas songs encore (with obligatory santa hat
    and coat!)
    And about Phil......about a year ago I was at a restuarant 
    watching Mose Allison. A strange looking guy came in with what 
    looked like a bodyguard..........I was nudging my friends going 
    'look! check that guy out!' etc.....and one of my friends froze 
    'thats Phil Spector!!!!!!!!!!!!!' no way !!! we all said. But I 
    checked with one of the waiters and they confirmed it was Phil!!!
    He was in town because of some court case to do with 
    It was only because I was very drunk that my friends were able 
    to persuade me to ask Phil for his autograph!!!!!!!!!! I told 
    him I hoped I wasn't disturbing him and told me it was okay 
    because if I did his friend would kill me!!!!!!!!'..............
    I told him how much I loved his work etc. He gave me his 
    autograph. It said: 'always be true to rock n roll and rock n 
    roll will always be true to you'
    I got his autograph for my friends too..........
    I kept the autograph in my purse as a lucky token cos I'm in 
    bands and stuff and I thought it might bring me luck....
    unfortunately some complete arseholes stole my bag and I lost my
    Phil autograph....
    xxxx delia xxxx
    Rough Trade Record Shop web site
    Rough Trade Shop
    130 Talbot Road
    London W11 1JA
    phone: 0171-792-3490
    fax:   0171-221-1146
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

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