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Spectropop V#0213

  • From: The Spectropop Group
  • Date: 01/19/99

  • __________________________________________________________
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       Volume #0213                        January 19, 1999   
    Subject:     Re: George Martin
    Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
    From:        Marc Wielage,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Paul Urbahns  said on the Spectropop List:
    >> I'll have to look this up to be absolutely sure, but I'm 99%
    >> positive that what George Martin actually said was that with
    >> Beatles records up to (and including?) the white album, the mono
    >> mix was the one which he and the engineers spent the most time
    >> and care on, with the stereo mixes done quickly and almost as an
    >> afterthought.
    >Yes, he did say that, but it was version 2 or 3 of his story. He
    >even tried to say he didn't supervise the stereo mixes and let
    >assistants to do the work, but someone wrote (in Goldmine I
    >think) that George Martin's name is on the session sheets the
    >stereos were created at.
    >Nobody knows the truth my opinion not even Martin.
    Sir George knows more than he lets on. Back in 1986-1986, when 
    the Beatles' CDs were first coming out, Martin got a lot of 
    press talking about his (and the other Beatles') preference for 
    the mono mixes for the first four albums. There was a lot of 
    revisionist history that went on, where everybody disavowed any 
    knowledge of the stereo LPs that were pressed all over the world
    during the mid-1960s.
    What did NOT get as much press was at least one astute reporter 
    at (I think) BILLBOARD magazine, who quizzed Martin in-depth 
    about the CD project. Martin explained that Capitol had 
    forwarded, as a courtesy, brand-new stereo remixes of the first 
    four albums to him, but he felt they sounded terrible. They 
    asked him what could be done, and he told them it would take at 
    least X weeks and cost X dollars for him to supervise "proper" 
    new stereo mixes. Knowing how politically incorrect it would be 
    for them to just go ahead and release the CDs as-is, with Martin
    unhappy about it, they asked for his second-best suggestion: just
    clean-up the original mono mixes and go with those.
    When Martin has been politely pushed on the subject, he does 
    admit that he would've liked the chance to go back and fix the 
    "vocals on one side / instruments on the other" split-track 
    stereo mixes on some of the tracks. The tragedy is that some of 
    the stereo mixes on the original BEATLES FOR SALE and HARD DAYS 
    NIGHT albums were fine; not _all_ of them were of the 
    split-track variety, and they would've sounded perfectly OK. 
    However, some of the mixes were pretty marginal, and those 
    would've taken a lot more time and energy to try to fix. Martin 
    tweaked some of these songs for the 1976 ROCK N' ROLL MUSIC 
    compilation, basically just panning the two channels slightly 
    together so that instead of getting killer-wide stereo, we got 
    somewhat widened-out mono.
    Unfortunately, with Martin semi-retired today (and suffering 
    some hearing loss), he's reluctant to take on new projects. As a
    side comment, I just about fell out of my chair yesterday when I 
    came upon his new mix of John Lennon's "Grow Old with Me" 1980 
    demo track, which now has full-blown orchestration on the JOHN 
    LENNON ANTHOLOGY boxed set. It's honestly sad to hear it, 
    because you realize what a great song it could've been, had 
    Lennon lived to complete it.
    Anyway, I'd definitely like to hear legitimate stereo CD 
    releases of the first four Beatles albums, and for that matter, 
    I'd like to see Capitol issue all the other albums in their mono
    mixes, just for crazed collectors. That'd make a helluva boxed 
    set -- "All Mono! All The Time!" -- if only for completists.
    I'd go a step further and ask for all the original 1960s Capitol
    U.S. albums as well. Despite their radically-altered "Dave Dexter" 
    mixes and song sequences, I think a lot of us who grew up in 
    the 1960s would find them very nostalgic. However, one Capitol 
    insider tells me it'd be a cold day in hell before a move like 
    this would ever be approved inside the Capitol Tower. Let's just
    say it might happen if, say, K-Tel were to buy EMI tomorrow. 
    -= Marc Wielage      |   "The computerized authority     =-
    -= MusicTrax, LLC    |       on rock, pop, & soul."      =-
    -= Chatsworth, CA    |         =-
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Alfie/Doo Dah/Earl vs. Hal
    Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
    From:        Frank Youngwerth, FXXXXXXXXom
    To:          Spectropop List,
    I assume "Alfie" was written for the film of the same name, 
    which I caught on TV for the first time last year. Finally, over
    the end credits, came Burt & Hal's fab tune. I was anticipating 
    hearing Dionne, but wow, for the movie it's sung by Cher 
    ("produced by Sonny")! Did everybody know this? It sure surprised 
    me. On one hearing (from my TV) I wouldn't say Cher quite did a 
    bang bang-up job exactly, but it's still a pretty groovy version
    --and not too widely available now, considering all the 
    Bacharach comps that have been popping up.
    > GLAD ALL OVER's "Doo Dah," which is simply fascinating in its 
    > awfulness: okay, a waltz played at funeral dirge speed with lyrics 
    > that slightly rewrite "Camptown Races" into directions for a 
    > would-be dance craze. Who on earth thought this was a good idea
    I used to like to play "Doo Dah" for friends for a laugh (until 
    I discovered the incredibly inept guitar break on the--love 'em--
    Gants cover of "Shapes of Things"). If I remember right, though
    this DC5 track is in 4/4, with a groove not unlike that of 
    Spector's "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah." Maybe even an early tribute to 
    My question to Carol: Now both you and Jack Nitzsche (in 
    Goldmine years ago) have made statements apparently favoring 
    Earl Palmer over Hal Blaine as all- time best studio drummer. 
    I've listened to them both extensively, and I'd tend to give Hal
    the edge. Earl transplanted the New Orleans "second line" beat to
    the Hollywood studios, and was a crucial force in early rock & 
    roll (Fats, Richard). But assuming that's Earl with you on Al 
    Martino's "Spanish Eyes," it sounds like maybe when he couldn't 
    rock out, sometimes he'd just keep time. Whereas Hal obviously 
    liked to get more involved with the productions and arrangements, 
    coming up with hooks that would often help make the record a 
    hit. Could Earl Palmer have done, say, Alpert's "A Taste of 
    Honey," Grass Roots' "Midnight Confessions," or Andy's "Happy 
    Heart" ? I could be way off base here, Carol, and I know if I 
    need to be corrected, you're the one to do it.
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Sue Thompson
    Received:    01/17/99 2:40 pm
    From:        Doc Rock, docrXXXXXXXXcom
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Carol Kaye wrote:
    >Doc, that's interesting about Sue Thompson, although, and I have
    >to be delicate about this, most singers, especially if they're 
    >experienced, don't have to be told where the beat is or phrasing
    >etc., or anything about the inside meters. The beat is always 
    >there, like a trolley line, all you have to do is "hook into it"
    >-- and you automatically know where 8 bars are, all those things 
    >that musicians feel too. It's understood where the bars of music
    >are, the rhythm of a song, meters etc.
    >Some singers in pop music do not have that experience I speak of
    >(imo), but they have other things; a voice, personality, overall 
    >presentation, aura, or ? that the record co. is banking on 
    >overall to make it big. All the studio backup singers know what 
    >I'm talking about here -- as do all experienced fine musicians, 
    >too. It's just a matter of having done it for decades, that's 
    You have played on a great many records, including hit records. 
    You are a famous session player. Yet you are largely unknown to 
    the general public.
    Similarly, Sue Thompson is known by most people only for her two
    early-'60s hits, "Sad Movies" and Norman." So it is 
    understandable that even you might assume that Sue was an 
    inexperienced singer when she recorded "Norman" and had trouble 
    with the meter. However, nothing could be further from the truth!
    Sue was born in 1926, so she was no Spring chicken when she 
    recorded "Norman" in 1961. In fact, "Norman" was her 18th of 78 
    45s and 78s. She recorded her first record in 1951. Over the 
    years, she recorded for Mercury, Decca, Columbia, and Hickory.
    Sue's 5th record was the original version of the now classic "
    You Belong To Me" (pre-dating Joni James, the Duprees, etc.)
    Growing up in abject poverty, Sue never had singing lessons. Her
    parents lost their Missouri farm to the bank during the 
    depression. She got her chance to become a singer when she won a
    beauty contest in 1948. The prize was a gig singing with a big 
    band in Vaudeville.
    Between that time and "Norman," Sue made countless appearances 
    on the Grand Old Opry, the Tennessee Ernie Ford Show, etc. She 
    also starred in her own long-running radio and TV shows in LA in
    the '50s. She played Vegas regularly for many years.
    THEN she recorded "Norman."
    By the way, when she had her hit "Paper Tiger" in 1965, she 
    toured with teen acts and appeared on Hullabaloo, passing for 19
    when she was really 39!
    I admire Sue's ability to be honest about her own shortcoming as
    a vocalist.
    Sue: "I used to have a hard time figuring out what 'meter' was. 
    We had a piano player we called 'Prof' (for professor) in Dude 
    Martin's band in San Francisco. He had been with the Milwaukee 
    Symphony and worked with Liberace. We would finish rehearsing a 
    song, and he would say, 'That's fine, but wait just a minute, 
    Dude.' Dude would ask what he wanted. 'That's just fine, but 
    let's meter this. Let's get it in meter.' To me, that was a 
    totally new language. I learned a lot from those people. They 
    were wonderful musicians who all played classical music with 
    other groups besides playing swing with Dude. They were nice 
    people who fortunately took time to work with me and teach me. 
    So singing behind the beat is something that I'm more 
    comfortable with. Now it's just habit."
    Yes, Carol, Sue had a gimmick, her voice. But she also had vast 
    experience, lasting success, and -- meter troubles!
    Doc Rock
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Shangri-Las
    Received:    01/19/99 4:08 am
    From:        Paul Urbahns, PaulurXXXXXXXXom
    To:          Spectropop List,
    In a message dated 1/17/99 5:30:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes:
    >The Shangri-la's, as you might expect, were just three 
    >impostors - all obviously far too young to have been out of 
    >diapers when the real group was in the charts. 
    Ian had a bad expreience, but last Summer (August) in Louisville
    the real Shangri-las were there and looking great. The current 
    group is two of the original members (out of three isn't bad) 
    andf the daughter of one of the two on stage. They said their 
    names and I have a couple of pictures I took of them. Great show.
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Re: Arbogast & Ross
    Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
    From:        Doc Rock, docrXXXXXXXXcom
    To:          Spectropop List,
    > ...Does anyone remember 
    > the record Stan put out with Bob Arbogast in 1958 called "Chaos"? 
    > It was a satire on RnR radio of that time ("KOS, Kay-os Radio") 
    > & was issued on Liberty 55197 but never charted. One of the 
    > funniest records I've ever heard (being an ex-jock), complete 
    > with fast-talking DJ & hilarious jingles 
    It is amazing how many topics come up in here which I covered in
    my book, Liberty Records. I hope you-all are not getting fed up 
    with my quoting the book!
    "Bill Stewart put on the second [and last] annual DJ convention 
    in Miami, Florida. . .It was at this convention when Liberty 
    distributed a satire of top-40 radio on a special record, free 
    to all the top-40 radio people attending the convention. The 
    Liberty people expected that these radio folk would be up for a 
    big joke at their own expense. As Don Blocker found out, radio 
    folk may like a good joke, but not one at their own expense, and
    Liberty "took a big setback with that."
    Meaning many Liberty 45s did not get airplay for some time 
    because DJs were anti-Liberty.
    There were all sorts of things like this that rock historians 
    know nothing about. That is to say, a writer will say that 
    such-and-such a record failed to chart because it was uninspired, 
    a bad follow-up, too slow, too fast, or whatever, when in fact
    there may be some totally obscure reason why a record fails -- or
    succeeds, that has nothing to do with art!
    The record was Liberty 55197, Chaos -- Part I, Chaos -- Part II 
    by Arbogast & Ross.
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Ronnie Spector EP
    Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
    From:        john rausch, XXXXXXXXnet
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Ronnie`s new 4 track ep is due for release 1/18/98 supposedly a 
    ltd. edition of 5000 copies. there is a US mail order ad in the 
    new Discoveries mag to order for 11.99 I haven`t seen any other 
    places offering this yet so I din`t know if this is a great 
    price or not. The ad is at work and I won`t be in till Tuesday 
    so if anyone is interested in the mail order address and/or 
    email, drop me a line at: 
    and I can send it to you.
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     grimacing
    Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
    From:        Doc Rock, docrXXXXXXXXcom
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Dave wrote:
    >This is something I've always wondered about. In rock and 
    >classical music, it's common for soloists to grimace, gesture, 
    >close their eyes, sway, or otherwise freak out. I've always 
    >assumed that much of this movement was showmanship, especially 
    >because most (but not all, by any means) jazz soloists tend 
    >toward the "robotic look" school.
    I have asked many (nom-grimacing) musicians about this. They, 
    too, wonder about the grimacing. After all, classical guitarists
    play difficult licks without making faces. The consensus is that 
    1) they may be bad players who really do have to make faces, 02 ) 
    they are faking so it looks difficult or soulful,), 03 ) it comes 
    from being on drugs while trying to put on a show or 4) they are
    imitating late '60s artists who were on drugs and could hardly 
    play they were so stoned!
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Showmanship
    Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
    From:        Carol Kaye,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    I do think it's mostly showmanship, but maybe the rockers do 
    "feel" that way too, I'm not sure. I can only speak from the jazz
    musician's standpoint. It really bothers me to watch any of that;
    it seems so pretentious to me -- there's a street name for it: 
    "styling and profiling".
    No, it's not "repressed" feelings, not to move. It's total 
    concentration on what you're doing - music being the most 
    important aspect of the whole jazz scene - it's not a "show".
    The jazz musician (speaking in general here, but pretty sure it 
    was wide-spread back in the 50s) does not feel the "urge to move
    around when playing a lot of great jazz" soloing -- simply not 
    done - you have to have complete self-honesty to be a fine jazz 
    musician and showmanship is sort of the opposite of that in jazz.
    Rock has more of the danceable music to it too which may account
    for some of that, but I personally think it's mostly showmanship 
    that the audience likes.
    I took a sub gig playing in back of Tony Orlando (about 1977 at 
    the Hilton in Las Vegas) and really saw some showmanship. Tony 
    is/was a nice fellow, but there is a lot of showmansip in 
    putting on a stage act. I know from many of the rockers I have 
    taught bass to over the years, talked w/them, taught them music,
    etc.; it's showmanship.
    I recorded w/Johnny Ray. Nice man, he didn't move a muscle. But 
    on the other hand, Joe Cocker was all over the place when we cut
    "Feelin' Alright" at Sunset Sound in summer 1968. He was moved by
    the music and was real. The rest of the artists we recorded for 
    couldn't move off-mike and were very subdued. Even with the 
    trackings. It was a business of getting a hit-record, so the 
    showmanship wasn't necessary.
    I know and worked a lot for Mike Curb, before he became a 
    politician. Sharp fellow, didn't know music too well, but knew 
    what he liked, was pleasant to work for, all dressed up all the 
    time. Played on some hits for him. 
    Carol Kaye
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Drifting in the Land of Make Believe
    Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
    From:        Jamie LePage,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Jim Cassidy wrote:
    >Both Dusty's and Dionne's versions of "In the Land of Make 
    >Believe" present the song as kind of an erotic daydream...
    >For a *completely* different interpretation of this song, 
    >try to find The Drifters' version (Is it on the "Rockin' & 
    >Driftin'" collection, Jamie? I only have it on an old, 
    >scratchy LP). Sung with passionate intensity by Rudy Lewis 
    >and accompanied by a more dissonant, discordant musical 
    >arrangement, it sounds as if the singer has gone off the 
    >deep end....
    When I read David Ponak's post, I checked my Dusty records; I 
    guess I haven't heard her version. So, I went back to the Make 
    Way for Dionne Warwick album. With "Close To You", "Reach Out 
    For Me", "You'll Never Get To Heaven", "Walk On By", "Wishin' 
    And Hopin'" and "Make the Night Last a Little Longer", this is 
    one of Dionne's strongest albums. God forgive the people at 
    Scepter for this jacket design. The back panel is fine. The 
    front, however, is an embarrassment. By the cover you'd never 
    guess this was one of Burt Bacharach's and Hal David's finest 
    achievements. I like 60's kitsch and all, but this front jacket 
    goes far beyond the boundaries of good taste.
    I can't comment on Dusty's version of "In the Land of Make 
    Believe"; but the Drifters take (yes it is on the Rhino set) is 
    far, far more powerful than the Dionne version. The "passionate 
    intensity" you speak of is comparable, I think, to the great run
    of Motown hits by Levi Stubbs and the 4 Tops. In a word, 
    I don't quite get what you mean by "dissonant, discordant 
    musical arrangement". Certainly there is that eerie sort of high
    octave unison thing happening... Anyway, there is a lot of 
    tension and anguish in the melody and the Drifters version is 
    100% persuasive.
    None of this is a discredit to Bacharach. Dionne's version is a 
    very fine album track. Especially on this hit-filled LP.
    Disclaimer: my _Make Way_ too is an old, scratchy album, 
    and the Drifters CDs sound incredible.
    One more thing: David, as much as I love Dionne's version of I 
    Say a Little Prayer, Aretha rules the roost, baby!
    All the best,
    Jamie LePage 
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Unavailable Ronnie tracks
    Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
    From:        IAC,
    To:          Spectropop List,
    >Any other Phil & Ronnie tracks for this "wish list"?
    Yeah, there's another Philles version of "I Wish I Never Saw The
    Sunshine" still in the can. It's a different arrangement - faster
    in tempo, almost as fast as "Do I Love You" - and has background 
    vocals in the intro and throughout singing "Wish I Never/Met You
    Baby/Wish I Never/Had Your Love......" Ronnie sings well, but the
    tempo doesn't really allow her to inject the same level of 
    emotion as she does on the version we're familiar with, and the 
    production's nowhere near as grandiose. I wouldn't be surprised 
    if it's actually one of Bob Crewe's late-Philles productions.
    Ian Chapman
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Uncollected Sides
    Received:    01/19/99 4:08 am
    From:        Paul Urbahns, PaulurXXXXXXXXom
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Jamie came up with a good Ronettes list, but I will 
    make a few comments:
    You Came, You Saw, You Conquered (formerly unavailable)
    This is on the single Ronettes Cd from ABKCO but it's in mono. 
    I'd like to see it out in stereo since it was done at the same 
    time and studios as the Chaeckmates Ltd material at that has 
    been out in stereo. I remember the first time I heard the song 
    on a promo copy delivered to a station I was working at. Great 
    record! Unfortunately the PD was too old to recognize the name. 
    the comeback was just not in the cards.
    >I Can Hear Music (currently unavailable)
    I hear there was a Phil Spector produced version of this done, 
    but it's probably just a rumor. Be great to hear it if there was
    such a thing. Imagine the difference between the Jeff Barry 
    produced "Girls can Tell" on Red Bird and the Spector versions 
    on Philles. Well Jeff produced the known version of I Can Hear 
    Music, so if Phil had done a version it would probably be fuller, 
    like the Beach Boys version was.
    >Blues For Baby (currently unavailable)
    Don't think I've heard Blues For Baby I thought it was an 
    instrumental B side.
    >Try Some, Buy Some / Tandouri Chicken 
    The only way Try Some, Buy Some would probably get released is 
    if someone does an Apple Box set. Tandouri Chicken was a throw 
    away so hold on to your 45s.
    Paul Urbahns
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    Subject:     Uncollected Ronnie
    Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
    From:        john rausch, XXXXXXXXnet
    To:          Spectropop List,
    Oh boy Jamie, did you open up a can of worms!!
    Uncollected Ronnie? where do i start? Your list is a good start 
    but I would like to ad other recordings Ronnie has done over the
    years, enough for 2 cds. not all are Phil Spector related tho... 
    hope thats ok. it`s a bit long and I have them all in one form 
    or the other.
    Here goes:
    you bet i would-ronettes (original mono version released on the 
    may label and is a different version than the stereo track on 
    the colpix lp)
    i wish i never saw the sunshine-ronettes (different philles era 
    version than which has since been released . produced by jeff 
    you -ronnie spector (2 versions from an apple records acetate 
    which were instrumentals only but ronnie can be heard 
    whoa-oh-ohing in the background and this was later used by 
    george harrison and released on his "extra texture " lp . george
    did the same thing earlier by erasing ronnies vocal on "try some, 
    buy some" and recording over the same instrumental track on 
    his lp "living in the material world"
    lovely la-de-day -ronnie spector (another apple records acetate 
    also with an alternate title"loverly laddy day")
    i love him like i love my very life-ronnie (yet another apple 
    records acetate) later recorded by darlene love. with all these 
    acetates, plus "try some, buy some" it would seem phil was 
    planning on recording an album for ronnie.
    i wish i never saw the sunshine-ronnie spector and the ronettes(
    2 different ronettes) on buddah records(a truncated version at 1
    :50 . the 3:00 version appeared on the 1992 cd release of "the 
    ronettes/colpix and buddah years"
    lover, lover-ronnie spector and the ronettes -buddah records
    go out and get it-ronnie spector and the ronettes -buddah records
    i wonder what hes doing - ronnie spector and the ronettes - 
    buddah records(these 4 buddah singles appeared on the cd "the 
    ronettes buddah/colpix years")
    youd be good for me-ronnie spector(single edit and 12" extended 
    disco mix. tomcat records)
    something tells me -ronnie spector(bside of the above)
    common thief -ronnie spector (unreleased track reportedly from 
    the siren lp)
    its a heartache
    i wanna come over (is that what time it is) both from alston 
    tonight(demo version)
    darlin' (demo version)
    let your feelings show (demo version) all3 from the siren lp 
    tonight you're mine (demo take and released version from the 
    soundtrack "just one of the guys"
    you and me go way back-ronnie spector, john sebastion,roger 
    mcguinn and felix cavaliere(from the "deja view" special"
    can't we try-ronnie spector and dan hill (demo)
    something's gonna happen
    for his love
    whenever you're on my mind (these 4 produced by allan betrock)
    little rosey-from the sat morn cartoon for rosanne
    creation of love (xmas song originally by frankie lymon)
    rockin' round the xmas tree-ronnie and darlene love
    farewell to a sex symbol (from a rock opera cd from the uk)
    blue coral reef (japan only v.a. comp)
    courting you on side 2
    never ending wind (3 more from a japan only comp)
    brace yourself (from an otis blackwell tribute)
    i love you so -felix cavaliere and veronica (Japan only tribute 
    to arthur alexander)
    so in need of a change -atomic swing featuring ronnie spector 
    (dutch band with ronnie doing the guest lead)
    want more?...part 2 to be continue
    Presenting the Fabulous 
    Phil Spector`s Wall Of SoXXXXXXXX://
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------

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