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Spectropop V#0210

  • From: The Spectropop Group
  • Date: 01/14/99

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       Volume #0210                        January 14, 1998   
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    Unbreakable Long Playing Monophonic Microgroove Recording
    
    
    
    
    Subject:     Re: Dave Clark stereo mixes
    Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
    From:        Brad Elliott, surXXXXXXXXnline.net
    To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com
    
    Greg wrote:
    
    >> On one of the last DC5 comps that Epic released, I
    >> think it was called "The Dave Clark Five," there are some
    >> beautiful stereo mixes.
    
    Then, Paul commented:
    
    >Most of the
    >DC5 stuff came out in reprocessed mono on Epic because Dave
    >didn't do stereo mixes. In the 70's EMI issued a stereo album of
    >the stuff which I have. There was an article in Billboard where
    >the engineer that did the remixes criticized them.
    
    The album that Greg refers to is indeed called simply THE DAVE 
    CLARK FIVE, and it indeed is full of beautiful stereo mixes -- 
    20 of them, in fact the entire contents of the double album. The
    album was released in 1971, so it may very well contain the same 
    stereo mixes as EMI issued (I'm presuming that was in England). 
    But the fact is that some of the DC5 stuff on Epic was NOT 
    reprocessed mono!
    
    The album, with a gatefold cover, is Epic EG 30434. I've got a 
    promo copy that I found years ago. I never thought this was rare, 
    but I've never compared notes with a Dave Clark Five collector, so 
    I really don't know (although, come to think about I, I don't guess 
    I've ever seen another copy). The lineup (all in stereo) is as 
    follows:
    
    Side 1:
    Glad All Over
    Can't You See That She's Mine
    I Need Love
    Good Love Is Hard to Find
    Try Too Hard
    
    Side 2:
    Because
    'Til the Right One Comes Along
    Whenever You're Around
    Remember It's Me
    When I'm Alone
    
    Side 3:
    Having a Wild Week-end
    Sitting Here Baby
    Concentration Baby
    Please Tell Me Why
    Inside and Out
    
    Side 4:
    Come Home
    I'll Be Your My Love
    Forever and a Day
    Bernedette
    Hurting Inside
    
    These are not simple two-track recordings, but rather 
    multi-track recordings mixed to stereo. A few of the earlier 
    things probably are mixed from three- or four-track, but some of
    the later stuff had to have been done on eight-track tape, with 
    doubled lead vocals and orchestral backings. If these are the 
    remixes that were criticized by the engineer, then he's NUTS! 
    This stuff would make a great CD! Paul, is this the same stuff 
    on that EMI album?
    
    Surf's up!
    Brad
    
    
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    
    
    Subject:     Re: Stereo mixes
    Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
    From:        Stewart Mason, flamXXXXXXXXcom
    To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com
    
    Paul Urbahns wrote:
    
    >You'll just have to live with the monos. The difference between 
    >Dave Clark and the Beatles producer, George Martin, was George 
    >tried to rewrite history by saying the Beatles albums were not 
    >issued in stereo in the past, which they were. The DC5 stuff was 
    >rechanneled and not in true stereo in the 60s, so in this respect 
    >Clark should not be compared to George Martin.
    
    I'll have to look this up to be absolutely sure, but I'm 99% 
    positive that what George Martin actually said was that with 
    Beatles records up to (and including?) the white album, the mono
    mix was the one which he and the engineers spent the most time 
    and care on, with the stereo mixes done quickly and almost as an
    afterthought.
    
    It reflects poorly on my credentials as a 60s pop fan, but I 
    have to admit that the stereo-vs-mono debate usually means 
    little to me. The primary benefit of CDs like Our Alec's 
    exemplary ODESSEY AND ORACLE reissue, where the album is 
    presented in stereo and then in mono, is that I can listen to 
    the album twice in a row without having to get up.
    
    Having said that, I did find the stereo mix of PET SOUNDS on 
    last year's box set endlessly fascinating, simply because it was
    a chance to hear and isolate certain instruments in the 
    arrangements, and to detect sounds I'd barely registered before.
    I did the same thing as a teenager in the mid-80s with a 
    quadrophonic copy of DARK SIDE OF THE MOON I bought from Paradox
    Mail Order in Torrance, CA. The mix was just different enough to 
    be oddly intriguing. Are there any other notably interesting 
    stereo/mono mix differences?
    
    Stewart
    
    
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    
    
    Subject:     Dave Clark
    Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
    From:        Paul Urbahns, PaulurXXXXXXXXom
    To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com
    
    Billy G. wrote:
    
    > Until some time in 1967, all of the DC-5's recordings had been 
    > mixed in mono only. It's probably the usual reasons why they 
    > were done this way; mono was more popular in England during the 
    > mid 60's, teenagers bought more mono records than stereo, 
    > records were mixed for AM radio, etc. I think the mono mixes are
    > great. 
    
    According to an interview I saw with Dave Clark in some 
    documentary he referred to the Dave Clark 5 as having a 
    "commerical sound" he knew what he wanted a loud commerical sound. I 
    guess if he had worked in stereo from the beginning it would 
    have cost twice as much to fill two channels as one. 
    
    David Bash wrote:
    
    > A few years ago he led people to believe that he would lease The
    > Dave Clark Five's proper albums and got several of his fans' hopes 
    > up.
    
    David,
    
    The DC5 two disk set did not set the world on fire like the 
    beatles reissues did. Therefore, I bet he's having trouble 
    finding anybody interested. A few DC5 songs have shown up on 
    movie CDs but the original albums (as I undertand it) were quite
    lame. I'd like to see a CD or rare or previously unissued stuff 
    from him. I heard he was going to cut hang On Sloopy but the 
    McCoys issued there version, is his still in the can? But 
    honestly only a handful of collectors would buy something like 
    that.
    
    Paul Urbahns
    paulurXXXXXXXXom
    
    
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    
    
    Subject:     Moore info
    Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
    From:        Jamie LePage, le_pageXXXXXXXXties.com
    To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com
    
    Richard Globman wrote:
    
    >The group that tours around the southeast is called "Bill 
    >Pinkney and the Original Drifters".  Your post mentions Clyde 
    >McPhatter and Johnny Moore as the chief honchos...
    >
    >Where does Bill Pinkney fit in here?
    
    When I learned Johnny Moore had passed away, and that he sang on
    several Drifters sides, I realized I needed a refresher course in
    Drifters history. Clyde McPhatter, Ahmet Ertegun, Jerry Wexler, 
    Bacharach/David, Ben E. King, Leiber & Stoller...all familiar 
    names, but Johnny Moore? Well, I wanted to learn more and 
    started doing some digging around in various books, articles and
    notes. In doing so, I compiled my findings into the Johnny Moore 
    post hoping our New York R&B aficionado listers would chime in 
    (hint, hint).
    
    A short passage from Charlie Gillett's book Making Tracks, page 
    93:
    
    QUOTE
    Ahmet Ertegun: "One of my favorite groups at the time was the 
    Dominoes. I used to go and see them at the Apollo.... One day I 
    went to Birdland, and Clyde wasn't there. I liked his high voice, 
    and the way he sang, so I went backstage and said to Billy 
    (Ward), 'Where's Clyde?' And he said 'Oh, we fired him'....
    
    "(I) had dinner (with Clyde) the next day, and signed him up.
    
    "...he had another group of friends who were really good, gospel
    singers called the Thrasher Wonders, one of them could sound just
    like the bass of the Dominoes...."
    
    The new formation, baritone **Bill Pinkney** and the brothers 
    Andrew and Gerhart Thrasher, completed the lineup of Clyde 
    McPhatter and the Drifters. END QUOTE
    
    So, yes, Pinkney was in the original McPhatter line up. This 
    first incarnation of the Drifters, under the direction of Ahmet 
    Ertegun and Jerry Wexler, had the 1953 hit Money Honey and a great 
    personal favorite, the 1954 hit Honey Love. After a stint in the
    service, McPhatter was persuaded to go solo. As I mentioned in my
    earlier post, George Treadwell owned the rights to the name 
    "Drifters." So McPhatter's leaving eventually led to Treadwell 
    bringing in the Ben King line up to record as the Drifters, and 
    it is that line up that we so strongly associate with Leiber and
    Stoller, even though in fact Ben King cut less than a dozen sides
    as the Drifters lead.
    
    Scott Bauman wrote:
    
    >>'Under The Boardwalk' reportedly features Phil Spector on 
    >>guitar. . . .
    
    >I know that Phil played guitar on "On Broadway."  Did he also 
    >play guitar on "Under the Boardwalk"?
    
    Again from Making Tracks, page 167:
    
    QUOTE
    Mike Stoller: "We signed (Phil) up to write and produce for us, 
    gave him some advances, and Jerry Leiber let him stay at his 
    house for a while. Phil started writing, with Jerry and some 
    other people, and Jerry took him to a lot of sessions, employed 
    him on quite a few as guitarist." UNQUOTE
    
    While it is acknowledged that Phil played the guitar on "On 
    Broadway," there is ample evidence that he also played on a 
    number of other Leiber/Stoller records from this time. From the 
    book "The Phil Spector Story" by Rob Finnis, page 31:
    
    QUOTE
    Leiber and Stoller began using Phil as a session guitarist 
    cum-factotum. They were heavily involved with Atlantic at the 
    time and Spector played session-guitar with the Coasters 
    ("Shopping For Clothes", Thumbing a Ride") La Vern Baker ("Saved" 
    b/w "Don Juan") and the Drifters ("Sweets For My Sweet"). UNQUOTE
    
    Finnis goes on to say that Spector, surprisingly, did NOT 
    play guitar at the Stand By Me session (during which they also 
    cut three Phil co-writes), but according to Finnis, Phil 
    did play on King's "Ecstasy" and "Yes" cut a year later.
    
    As to Under The Boardwalk, I picked up that info from one of the
    wire service obits on Johnny Moore (thus my use of the word 
    "reportedly"). Does anyone have a fairly reliable list of Leiber/
    Stoller dates on which Spector was employed as guitarist?
    
    I am (finally) off to get the much touted Drifters box set this 
    weekend...
    
    --
    All the best,
    Jamie LePage 
    
    
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    
    
    Subject:     Original Drifters
    Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
    From:        Paul Urbahns, PaulurXXXXXXXXom
    To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com
    
    In a message dated 1/12/99 5:44:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
    spectrXXXXXXXXties.com writes:
    
    > The group that tours around the southeast is called "Bill 
    > Pinkney and the Original Drifters". Your post mentions Clyde 
    > McPhatter and Johnny Moore as the chief honchos...
    > 
    > Where does Bill Pinkney fit in here?
    > 
    > DICKYG
    
    Bill Pickney is in fact the Original Drifters. Most fans already
    know that there were two Drifters groups on the hits. The 
    original hits were by The Drifters and Bill Pickney was in the 
    group. They had hits on Honey Love, and others very similiar to 
    what the Coasters were doing. Leiber & Stoller owned the name to
    the Drifters and fired the whole group over a dispute. They hired
    another group (The Five Crowns? I think was the name) and had 
    them record as the Drifters. That's when the sound changed from 
    R&B (Pickney's group) to sleek pop (Moore, McPhatter, and others). 
    Bill tried for years to get the group name back because they 
    used it before joining up with Leiber & Stoller but never filed 
    papers. Finally the courts agreed he was entitled to use the 
    name "The Original Drifters" because they were.
    
    That's it in a nutshell
    
    Paul Urbahns
    paulurXXXXXXXXom
    
    
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    
    
    Subject:     Sue Thompson
    Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
    From:        Doc Rock, docrXXXXXXXXcom
    To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com
    
    Carol,
    
    Your comments about switching instruments reminded me of a story
    Sue Thompson told me about a session of hers. From my upcoming 
    Discoveries article:
    
    
    Recording "Norman" was a little trickier than recording "Sad 
    Movies."  For one thing, producer Jim Hall felt that the single 
    trombone on the song was a bit thin, that the track needed more 
    "Oomph."  Sue: "So Jim asked if anyone else in the band played 
    the trombone. Boots Randolph said, 'Sure, I do,' and he went out
    and got his trombone. A guitarist also got his trombone, and they
    all three played. Later, Boots told a lot of people, "'Norman' is
    the only hit record that I ever played trombone on!'"
    
    Why was the trombone even used on the song?
    
    
    Funny thing, though. If you pay attention to Sue's vocal on 
    "Norman," you can hear that she lags slightly behind the band on 
    much of her vocals. It is hardly noticeable, because somehow, it
    seems to fit the pace of the song -- like she cannot keep up with
    her own enthusiasm for Norman. Sue can explain that.
    
    "I didn't want to do 'Norman.'  I was talked into it, and of 
    course I was happy after I learned the song. But when I first 
    heard it, I said, 'That is a really cute song, but it's not for 
    me.'  My delivery was always very, very slow. I spoke slowly, 
    and for some reason I had a hard time singing fast songs. I 
    think my singing slightly after the beat came from my early days
    of wanting to be a band singer. I always listened to and admired 
    Ella Fitzgerald, who always sang behind the beat. Ella 
    Fitzgerald, Mildrid Baily, Lady Day, people like that didn't 
    sing right on the beat. They put more expression into their 
    songs by being themselves. They sang within a musical structure,
    but not right on the beat. I think my singing that way on 'Norman' 
    may have come from that.
    
    "I used to have a hard time figuring out what 'meter' was. The 
    singing on 'Norman' was set for me. Boudleaux was a fine 
    musician, and he knew my pattern. I couldn't stay in meter with 
    that song until Boudleaux added the trombone part, '
    bom-bom-bom-bom,' just before the word 'Norman.'  I could not 
    keep in meter until he added that. He did it on the guitar when 
    I was learning that song while staying at their home on the old 
    Hickory Lake. That was how I learned most of the songs I did 
    early on Hickory records. Roy Acuff and Wesley Rose and Fred 
    Rose and Boudleaux and Felice all lived around Hickory Lake.
    
    
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    
    
    Subject:     A gifted, talented and socially "aware" Phil Spector
    Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
    From:        R Teyes, RTXXXXXXXXom
    To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com
    
    To Scott, Greg and Others:
    
    Re: Bumps statement that Phil stole his music from Blacks: 
    Nonsense! A gifted, talented and socially "aware" Phil Spector 
    never stole from any "minority" group their music.. He only 
    influenced HIS  songs  with other ethnic rhytms and beats. Be My
    Baby has castanets and shakers that we Latinos can easily 
    attribute to our culture-as a matter of fact, we are highly 
    proud that a talented young man from a Jewish background is able
    to pay homage to our basic rhythms and actually make hits of them! 
    Phil used Black singers because they were the best at the time
    he wrote these songs or produced them. He didn't force them to 
    sing-despite paying them low salaries. Fair is fair-Phil was an 
    aggressive, hostile and talented little man that made stars of 
    unknowns.
    
    As for the guitar Phil supposedly plays in a few Drifters songs,
    no one really knows for sure because Phil hasn't made this claim.
    I know he has said that he produced countless songs before making
    it. Some of these songs were never released. I know because I was
    his "coffee boy" here in New York. I had never heard Phil say 
    anything derogatory about anyone else but the distributors he 
    hated. And I am also fair enough to say he banished ME sometimes
    from the studios when I became a nusiance. (I was 15 or 16 at the
    time). Gregg, is the documentary you mention the one PBS showed 
    some years ago? I do have that one.
    
    Robert the Ronette Hound
    
    
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
    
    
    Subject:     Phil & Bumps
    Received:    1/13/99 1:23 PM
    From:        Carol Kaye, carolXXXXXXXXlink.net
    To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com
    
    You know, I never heard anything like that about Bumps Blackwell
    accusing Phil of stealing black sounds. I knew Bumps Blackwell 
    very well and I don't think he'd say anything like that publicly, 
    although he might have "thought it" (back then) - but there 
    again, I'm guessing -- I never heard him say things like that 
    even in private - just never heard that.
    
    Bumps was a gracious man, he was in love with the Hollywood era,
    and justly so, he started a lot of great producing things and was
    a fine musician himself (played vibes, I worked a nice jazz gig 
    with him a couple of times, his brother Charley was a fine 
    drummer and he did some of the Sam Cooke stuff too, but of 
    course it was usually Earl Palmer on drums on dates).
    
    Bumps spoke very smoothly, was a good person, had a lot of 
    talent producing, had fine musical taste always, and I always 
    liked working for him. He always meant well, and was a big part 
    of the producing scene here, knew how to put a great hit record 
    together (way before Phil and H.B.) and influenced MANY MANY 
    people here in LA.
    
    He truly made a star out of the fine Sam Cooke while being the 
    manager of Little Richard, put together some of the finest 
    background pop singers (the best in the biz) instead of going 
    the other way, it was semi-jazz almost in sounds, something 
    others would have never done. He raised the level of recording 
    taste, and I thought he was very good to work for.
    
    Bumps had respect for good musicians and was very straight with 
    me -- had he been anything but a perfect gentleman and straight 
    with the business and music end, I'd have never wanted to stay 
    in studio work -- he admired you if you could play and had 
    respect for everyone.
    
    When I first met him, couldn't believe how nice he was, and sort
    of doubted his "credentials" but the band knew him so I thought 
    he was all right then.
    
    I grew to love working for Bumps who had a nice wife, he was 
    nice to other people; I met many other fine jazz musicians 
    through him -- he was proud of the way I played and wasn't a 
    Henry Higgins with me at all, just my employer but a good friend
    kind of too.
    
    Bumps however, did promise a lot more work than I got through 
    him and others, so had to get another day job (this time as 
    technical typist on the top-secret missile maintenance manuals 
    at Bendix, haha, and there I was playing the wild jazz clubs, 
    taking off for occasional record dates and cleared for 
    top-secret -- but they were right in hiring me, my lips were 
    sealed) for about 2-3 years before I finally was able to make 
    enough in studio work to quit my day job (was supporting 4 of us
    back in 1957-1960 as a young girl).
    
    Bumps Blackwell was a good guy, and I owe him a lot. He died 
    about 1985 and one of his last projects was to try to record Yma
    Sumac who I met. I wasn't in good shape but he hired me to cut 
    some bass on his attempt at doing some commercial recording for 
    the very nice Yma -- I had always been a fan of hers, and she 
    was a very nice lady. Middle-aged by this time but still had 
    that bird-high voice of hers, really something. Bumps was trying
    for hit records until the very end.
    
    And I understand Charley died up in Montana or Wash. somewhere, 
    his son is here in LA and rooms w/someone I know, so will be 
    having lunch with him sometime soon. Those days with Bumps, Sam 
    Cooke, Rene Hall, Earl, Charley Blackwell all mean a lot to me 
    (it was Lou Rawls too who sung backup for Sammy) -- tough times 
    in a way, but honest in the music.
    
    Well....actually..about Phil and the "black sounds", Phil did 
    use black musicians, and we were all throwing some musical ideas
    in the pot on his records, altho' Jack Nitzsche did turn out some
    fine arrangements (and Gene Page too) -- Jack started out as the 
    gofer for H.B. Barnum, another pioneer talent of the LA 
    recording scene, who really never got his due for what he got 
    started here in LA.
    
    Jack's wife (then) Gracia, was the studio singer who could sing 
    the highest of notes, great back-up singer, nice gal, always 
    loved Gracia, never could understand why they split up.
    
    Jack, while doing copying for H.B. learn arranging skills well -
    and it was always rush-rush, sometimes H.B. would be arranging
    right up to the minute of the date, with Jack right there rushing
    the copying off as we would be recording the 1st of the 4 tunes. 
    H.B. now is musical conductor (has been for years) for Lou Rawls
    and Aretha.
    
    You use black talent playing on the dates, black singers, and 
    white people who spent years playing in jazz clubs with black 
    jazz groups, of course some of it will come out sounding black -
    that was the best and most fun grooves to play back then. Phil, 
    I think, was drawn to black soul music too.
    
    Claudia thanks for your kind words, I was lucky a lot of the 
    time too. Had I been a "jazz white female sax player" instead of
    a guitar player in late 1957, I don't think I'd have been 
    in-demand for studio work -- guitar players ruled back then, was
    lucky to be in the right place, right time, etc. and made the 
    right decision to do studio work and not stay in the jazz clubs 
    (well actually my kids made it for me, and I thank them, all 3 
    turned out the best, again very lucky as I wasn't a great 
    stay-at-home mom....).
    
    Yes, I can see Roseanne going for the "image" thing, rather than
    the knowledgeable thing about who these writers really were -- 
    that's the "staritis" of Hollywood (and the world actually) I 
    can't stand -- too much emphasis placed on image and "stardoms" 
    and nothing much on all the talent it took to put them there.
    
    Makes people feel bad if they're "not stars" I think in their 
    daily lives, at least some -- especially the kids in school who 
    think that's the "only thing to aim for". It's a shame that she 
    didn't do her homework, for she had a chance to lead the public 
    in "recognition of credit where credit is due"......called 
    appreciation.
    
    With River Deep Mountain High, I truly thought it was going to 
    be another big hit for Phil. Maybe the public was tired of the 
    "wall of sound", maybe the tune wasn't strong enough, etc. lots 
    of things come into play. It certainly had the ballsy sound, 
    fine arrangement, and intense performances on it. Sure felt good
    to record that one at Gold Star. Glad it was a big hit in England.
    
    BTW, I just heard from Jewel Aikens, we talked for awhile, nice 
    nice man, so good to hear from him, he says he's been singing in
    Las Vegas, thinking of doing some more recording and some live 
    things here in LA too. (I played guitar through the Leslie organ
    speaker on "Birds And The Bees", we talked about how much fun to 
    cut that and other nice things he did too -- at Gold Star).
    
    I heard from Janis Ian too (email), two of my favorite people to
    record for in the 60s -- it doesn't get any better than this, 
    things in the offing.
    
    Best, Carol Kaye http://www.carolkaye.com/
    
    
    --------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------- 
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