======================================================== o | o-o o-o o-o o-o -o- o-o o-o o-o o-o o-o \ | | |-' | | | | | | | | | | | o-o O-o o-o o-o o o o-o O-o o-o O-o | | | o o o ======================================================== Volume #0009 11/08/97 ======================================================== Subject: "songs" vs. "records" and what if _smile_ had been released Sent: 11/7/97 3:49 AM Received: 11/7/97 8:29 AM From: dave prokopy, prokXXX@XXXXXX.net To: Spectropop List, spectroXXX@XXXXXXies.com > A good way to gauge whether a particular platter is thought of as a > "song" or as a "record," IMHO, is to see how often it gets covered by > other artists. Early Beatles tunes are fairly often covered, > particularly by country artists, but not so many songs from Sgt. Pepper > or after get remade. well, it depends on the era. lots of early beatles songs got covered IN the mid-sixties, by other not-so-talented artists who didn't have as much strong original material and/or were trying to cash in on the beatles' fame. but by the latter part of the decade, when it really WAS required that any "hip" band write their own material, covers in GENERAL died down, and the only people left doing covers were more traditional pop singers. as for country artists covering early beatles songs, i think this is more just a result of the fact that the earlier, more straight-forward beatles songs simply lend themselves to country artists these days. i just can't imagine garth brooks trying "being for the benefit of mr. kite"! > And as for Brian Wilson tunes, well fugettaboutit. Almost nobody > bothers to cover them. again, i think the reason for this is that probably the most popular beach boys songs are seen as incredibly dated these days. unfortunately, people still just associate the beach boys with surf and cars and summer. it seems to me that, _stars and strips_ notwithstanding, the people who cover beach boys songs most these days are "alternative" artists, and they tend to appreciate the non-hits a lot more than your average listener. at any rate, i think i kinda disagree with the whole assessment that the mid-sixties meant the death of "songs" vs. "records." i think there WAS a point, maybe 1966-1967, when experimentation and weirdness kind of overtook songwriting, but i think by the LATE sixties, people started to focus again on composing actual catchy pop songs again. again, the beatles are a good reference point. _sgt. pepper_ and _magical mystery tour_ are certainly more "records" than they are "compositions," but by the time of the "white album" ("revolution 9" being the exception) and especially _abbey road_, they had evolved into very mature songwriters, who were experienced enough in the studio (having BEEN through all that experimentation) to know how to use it to their upmost advantage. but there was definitely a big second wind in "pop" songwriting in the late sixties and early seventies. some of the great "bubblegum pop" classics came out during this period. > I'm not sure which it would be, but one thing I'm confident of is that > nothing even remotely close to "Wild Honey" would have been released, and > in some ways I'm glad that "Smile" wasn't released, because "Wild Honey" > was showed the band to have such remarkable versatility; besides, I like > it a good deal more than any configuration of "Smile" I've heard. couldn't disagree more. i think the world needed a _smile_ album a LOT more than they'll ever need a _wild honey_. any decent R&B group could have done _wild honey_, and done it better. _smile_, on the other hand, was a truly original piece of art. -----------[ archived by Spectropop ]----------- Subject: 9 Disk Spector set Sent: 11/7/97 1:42 PM Received: 11/8/97 3:17 AM From: Paul Urbahns, purbaXXX@XXXXXXorg To: Spectropop List, spectroXXX@XXXXXXies.com LePage wrote: There was a 9 disc box set released in UK in the 80's. I never bought it because the only "track" I didn't have was Lover by the Ronettes. Were the tracks on that compilation in stereo, does anyone know? Paul URbahns comments: I think I have almost all the nine disks in singles. The Ronettes first album is stereo but the second Greatest Hits is mono from what I remember. There are a few stereo cuts but mostyly all mono. Is there any USA CD Mail order place that sells these Marginal label CD's. -----------[ archived by Spectropop ]----------- Subject: Re: Return To Brill Days Sent: 11/7/97 6:24 AM Received: 11/8/97 3:17 AM From: Darian Sahanaja , monsaXXX@XXXXXXink.net To: Spectropop List, spectroXXX@XXXXXXies.com le_page_XXX@XXXXXXies.com wrote: > >Brent Kubasta wrote: > >>>Cookies "I Never Dreamed"... >> >>I *love* this record. > >Anyone else? I Never Dreamed could be among the best girl group records >ever! I must agree here. Absolutely fantastic record! Then again Dimension churned out quite a few of the best girl group records ever. Most notably "Baby, Baby I Still Love You" by the Cinderellas and "Keep Your Hands Off My Baby" by Little Eva. But The Cookies stuff is song for song the most consistent. From early tracks like "Softly In The Night" to later evolved songs like the aformentioned "I Never Dreamed" and even including the solo Cookie 45's by Earl-Jean and Darlene McCrea, this legacy is most satisfying indeed. And all of course under the magical guidance of Carole King and Gerry Goffin (after all, Dimension was really "their" label). I'd be curious to know what Spectropop subscribers deem as being the best girl group records ever. And to Jamie. . .what kind of Dimension Records archive are you making? I myself am trying to make a a Bob Crewe-produced girls discography. By the way, I'd like to thank David Bash for turning me on to this very-hard-resist digest. Good going boys. . .keep up the good work. -Darian "thinking of rock star moves but still a record geek at heart" Sahanaja -----------[ archived by Spectropop ]----------- Subject: Re: Smile Sent: 11/8/97 5:07 AM Received: 11/8/97 10:25 AM From: Chuck Limmer, CLimXXX@XXXXXXm To: Spectropop List, spectroXXX@XXXXXXies.com In a message dated 97-11-06, David Bash asked: << What if Smile had actually been released in 1967, as planned? How do you think that would have impacted the Beach Boys career? >> David: Hindsight's always perfect, and we've got 30 years' worth to work with in this instance. I doubt very much that the release of _Smile_ at its intended time would've made much difference in the Beach Boys' subsequent career. After all, _Pet Sounds_ *did* come out--and look where the BBs wound up. The thing is, Brian was trying to take the band down a path that, in the mid-'60s, neither the group members nor their fans were entirely ready for. Despite its brilliance, _Pet Sounds_ was a commercial disappointment--their third-lowest-charting LP to that point--and it's hard to believe that the record-buying public would have executed an abrupt about-face only a matter of months later. What might the BBs have gone on to record after _Smile_? Depends on your interpretation of cause and effect. If you believe that _Smile_'s non-release *caused* Brian's loss of control over the band's artistic direction, then I guess you can make the case that putting that album out would have fixed everything. It's more reasonable, I think, to see the _Smile_ fiasco as a predictable outcome of Brian's well-documented emotional and/or psychological problems (complicated by substance abuse). At some point, Brian was inevitably going to be unable to run the whole show any longer. The Who without Pete Townshend. The Kinks without Ray Davies. The Stones without Jagger/Richards. The Beatles without Lennon/McCartney. The wonderment of the Beach Boys is not that the music they've made since Brian's creative withdrawal, coincident with the collapse of _Smile_, has so often been disappointingly mediocre (with both brilliant and embarrassing extremes). It's that they continued at all. Chuck Limmer n.p. "I'll See Your Light," Everly Brothers, _Heartaches and Harmonies_ -----------[ archived by Spectropop ]----------- Subject: Re: What If Smile Had Been Released? Sent: 11/7/97 5:47 AM Received: 11/7/97 8:29 AM From: James K Cribb, jkcrXXX@XXXXXXcom To: Spectropop List, spectroXXX@XXXXXXies.com OK, I'll jump in on this one David. (But first thanks to Jamie, et al for having me here. These first few editions have been very educational.) If Smile had been released, one scenario I've imagined is that it doesn't matter what the critical reaction is. I don't think the public would allow the band to change. The Beatles evolved to Sgt Pepper over several albums, none of which took the artist/sonic/directional leap that Brian took with Pet Sounds and then Smile. And remember the Beatles unilaterally became a studio band. The Beach Boys continued to tour and had to become an oldies band because they could not recreate the new material effectively live. And the band (or at least Mike -- how many of you have heard his vitriolic voice-over version of Heroes and Villians?) really resented Brian's new direction, so they purposefully fostered the continuation of the surf/car sound. The mere existence of Smile, finished, unfinished, warmly received or snubbed, would have resulted in a similar situation. Brian had fought so many battles by that time (mostly against Murray), he had to be fragile. If anything, it was the success of Good Vibrations, that did him in. In that he achieved the "perfect" three-minute pop symphony and it was critically acclaimed and it went number one. He had to not only top Pet Sounds as an album, he had to make an album worthy of "Good Vibrations." And he had to fight his own personal demons, Capitol Records (pending lawsuit) and his own band/family. It was the making of Smile that did the damage. Its release would've had little impact, as the damage was done during the making. Yes, eventually we would've had Wild Honey. It seems a fairly consistent trend that after a great deal of experimentation, artists frequently get back in touch with their roots. Only in the Beatles case the much revered Mr Spector ruined it (yes, I am baiting you). James -----------[ archived by Spectropop ]----------- Subject: Signs and Wonders Sent: 11/7/97 6:59 AM Received: 11/7/97 8:29 AM From: David Marsteller, davebXXX@XXXXXXlin.org To: Spectropop List, spectroXXX@XXXXXXies.com Hmm, I'm wondering if the pop music world is ready for some more changes: 1) Brill era vets Mann & Weil turn up as cowriters on the Hanson album, while Carole King cowrites a song for Wilson. Both albums are on Mercury, with some of the same folks behind them. Coincidence? 2) I saw a recent article (wish I remembered where) on the rise of 'knock-off' copies of hits. Since labels either cut-out singles quickly, or don't release them at all, entepreneurs are recording sound-alike versions of tracks like "Barbie Girl" as replacements. Could it be the era of the song is returning? Later Dave /************************************************************************/ /** "Reach out and grab a fistful of now" **/ /** Thornetta Davis **/ /** David Marsteller davebXXX@XXXXXXlin.org **/ /************************************************************************/ -----------[ archived by Spectropop ]----------- Subject: Smile, Flowerpot Men, and Honeys Sent: 11/7/97 10:13 AM Received: 11/8/97 3:17 AM From: David Marsteller, davebXXX@XXXXXXlin.org To: Spectropop List, spectroXXX@XXXXXXies.com David Bash was asking us to speculate on what would have happened if Smile was completed as planned. Uh, well, first Capitol would've probably had a fit. They hadn't figured out how to sell Pet Sounds, and at least that consisted of pop songs, more sophisticated pop songs, but still pop. It's hard to tell from the unfinished work, but Smile looks like it would have departed from song structure a great deal. The fans (the old fans) wouldn't have known what to make of it. The Beach Boys never quite had the cachet that The Beatles did, where they coul do whatever they wanted and it would be cool. It might have found a home a couple years later with the same ones who bought Pink Floyd, but those folks probably would've looked down their noses at anything from this band. Not hip enough. Yes, the press may have heralded it, but rock journalism (and FM rock radio) was in its infancy, and probably wouldn't have influenced sales much. Bummer, huh? I have the other Flowerpot Men CD, also called Let's Go To San Francisco, on the C5 label. My disc only has 14 songs. If I have: 1) Let's Go To San Francisco (Part 1) 2) Let's Go To San Francisco (Part 2) 3) A Walk In The Sky 4) Am I Losing You 5) You Can Never Be Wrong 6) A Man Without A Woman 7) In A Moment Of Madness 8) Young Birds Fly 9) Journey's End 10) Mythological Sunday 11) Blow Away 12) Piccolo Man 13) Let's Go Back To San Francisco 14) Silicon City would it be worth the effort to get the Repertoire disc for the bonus tracks? And as far as Ginger's singing in The Honeys, gee I'll have to go back and listen. Most of my impression was formed from hearing the Spring album, which was Ginger-free, right? I think the Rovell sisters are annoyingly nasal sounding, and that pretty much turned me off to their whole output. Later Dave np: Twist & Shout! 12 Atlantic Tracks Produced By Phil Spector /************************************************************************/ /** "Reach out and grab a fistful of now" **/ /** Thornetta Davis **/ /** David Marsteller davebXXX@XXXXXXlin.org **/ /************************************************************************/ -----------[ archived by Spectropop ]----------- Subject: The Toons Sent: 11/7/97 5:26 AM Received: 11/7/97 8:29 AM From: Kevin & Collette Mangold, discXXX@XXXXXXmail.com To: Spectropop List, spectroXXX@XXXXXXies.com I know this probably isn't the best place to ask this, but after posting the question on the Audities list (and getting only one response - thanks Jack!!!), but I don't know where else to turn. Does anyone have any information on the Toons? I know that they did 2 albums for Rhino that are out-of-print, disbanded and have apparently vanished off of the face of the Earth. The ... ahem ... kind people at Rhino were absolutely no help; saying that the Toons are part of the past and they're more interested in the 'now'... (isn't that heavy???). I'm trying to get some broadcast-quality (read: cd or virgin vinyl) of 'Looking At Girls' as well as information on the band's demise and possible whereabouts of the members - all of this for a radio special. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! Kevin -----------[ archived by Spectropop ]----------- Subject: Three Dog Night Sent: 11/7/97 1:50 AM Received: 11/8/97 10:25 AM From: Big L, bXXX@XXXXXXt To: Spectropop List, spectroXXX@XXXXXXies.com .... and, you forgot: Try A Little Tenderness - Otis Redding Big L Check out my "Radio Legends" homepage at: bXXX@XXXXXXt http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/9816 "I love radio - I just hate what they're doing with it these days" -----------[ archived by Spectropop ]----------- Subject: Tell That Girl to Shut Up ??? Sent: 11/8/97 1:56 PM Received: 11/8/97 6:39 PM From: NazXXX@XXXXXXm To: Spectropop List, spectroXXX@XXXXXXies.com CC: jjaXXX@XXXXXXgers.com A question for you listers. Can you think of examples of hit records released post 1966 that still had the classic girl group sound. I can think of at least three but it's open to argument if they qualify as either classic or "girl group" 1. Just for Tonight/ The Chiffons--1966 2. Condition Red/The Goodies--1969 3. Love ( Can Make You Happy)/Mercy--1969 There's got to be some others but I can't think of any right now. Elements of the sound did reemerge in the post-punk/new wave era and could be heard in groups ranging from Bananarama to Blondie to Holly and the Italians and more. Could Phil Spector score a hit today ? Javed -----------[ archived by Spectropop ]----------- End
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