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Spectropop - Digest Number 644



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                        Jamie LePage (1953-2002)
                   http://www.spectropop.com/Jamie.htm
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There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
           From: Richard Williams 
      2. Re: Online vinyl price guides?
           From: zombie7123 
      3. An open letter to John Clemente regarding your book
           From: Ronnie Allen 
      4. Casino Classics 2; Gabby;  Barbara English
           From: Mike Edwards 
      5. Open letter to John Clemente (#2) ..... regarding the Echelons
           From: Ronnie Allen 
      6. Standing in the Shadows...
           From: Richard Williams 
      7. WALLPAPER OF SOUND - THE SONGS OF PHIL SPECTOR & FRIENDS
           From: Don 
      8. In Shadow's shadow?
           From: Mark Frumento 
      9. WALLPAPER OF SOUND - THE SONGS OF PHIL SPECTOR & FRIENDS
           From: Phil Chapman 
     10. Re: Standing In The Shadows Of Motown
           From: Mick Patrick 
     11. Re: Standing In The Shadows Of Motown
           From: Dan Hughes 
     12. RE: Standing In The Shadows...
           From: Phil Chapman 
     13. Re: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
           From: James Botticelli 
     14. Re: Chico's Girls
           From: Mick Patrick 
     15. Reflecting on the Reflections
           From: Martin Roberts 


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Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:12:11 +0100
   From: Richard Williams 
Subject: Re: Standing in the Shadows of Motown

I think I'm right and Mikey's wrong about hi-hats/ride cymbals 
on Motown hits, but I'm in the road and can't go to the evidence. 
I'm a drummer, too, for what that's worth. From memory, check 
"These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" and "Back in My Arms 
Again". And anyway if you couldn't hear them on the original
45s, the way they were compressed and cut for radio, then to 
all intents and purposes they weren't there. (I'm gonna get 
roasted for that!) 
Phil Chapman will be surprised how little smoothing-out of 
history there is in the film, although there is no mention 
of the tracks cut in LA, as per Carol Kaye's various interviews 
(dangerous to exaggerate LA's contribution, in my view). He may 
also slightly revise his opinion about the degree of thought that 
went into the sound; doesn't everybody accept that Motown's 
records sounded so different because the producers and engineers 
knew eaxctly what they were doing? Which is surely why even 
"Stop Her On Sight" and "Higher and Higher", great as they are, 
don't sound like Hitsville USA tracks. 
As ever, I stand to be corrected.

Richard Williams



-------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 2 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:05:08 -0000 From: zombie7123 Subject: Re: Online vinyl price guides? > You may want to try http://www.recordmaster.com. It's pretty > limited (no return for the Reflections, for example), but > it's the only site I know of that has values listed. Thanks for the site. Looks pretty good! I've found a lot of really obscure stuff -- I even searched for the Reflections, to see why you couldn't find any listings, and zillions of Reflections search results came back! Not sure what you did wrong. The trick on this site is you have to spell things absolutely perfectly, or you get zero results. For example, "reflections" with a lower-case "r" gets you nothing, but "Reflections," as mentioned, gets a ton. "Gerry and the Pacemakers" comes up empty, but "Gerry & the Pacemakers" (ampersand instead of "and") produces a bonanza. Primitive search-engine-ology, to be sure, but keep trying and you're likely to find what you're looking for. I tried to get a result for Kane's Cousins doing Take Your Love, but got nowhere til I searched for the label ("Shove Love" records) and finally hit paydirt. -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 3 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:22:34 EDT From: Ronnie Allen Subject: An open letter to John Clemente regarding your book John, All I can say is no matter what you do you can't please all of the people all of the time. However I can tell you that in my opinion (and the opinion of most people I've talked to about it) your "Girl Groups" book is a most EXCELLENT book and arguably the best ever written on the subject! I am not, by nature, generally an "impulse" buyer. But as you know (because I personally told you) several months ago I was in a Barnes and Noble store just "browsing." As soon as I came upon your book for the first time. I took it off the shelf and sat down and started reading. And reading. And reading! It didn't take long for me to decide that this was a book that I HAD to have? What did I like most about it? For openers (in no particular order) the pictures, articles and the extensive discgraphies! It was obvious to me how much hard work you had put into the book. Yep it's true, "War And Peace" it ISN'T! But to tell you the truth I never got much into THAT literary work. Somehow I could never personally associate with it enough to enjoy it. And yes, it was a bit LONG! But in my opinion if anyone is looking for what I personally consider the BEST book available on the subject of Girl Groups of the period that your book covers then I think your book wins hands down! Earlier this year I was most gratified to have to be able to contact you. I found out that you were from New Jersey, not too far from me (I live in Pennsylvania) and my radio friend Mike Mikels. Happily I was able to put you in touch with him and that led to you doing not one but two two-hour LIVE interview shows with Mike Mikels -- on his Internet M-PAK Radio station -- that showcased your book! Those two shows, like your book, were EXCELLENT! I hope that many of the Spectropoppers reading this message got a chance to hear either of them or both. On a personal note I truly enjoyed meeting you on in Mike Mikels' studio on February 14th of this year. I remember that date well because it was the night I presented my three-hour interview MPAK show with Diane Renay. During that show I had the pleasure and indeed the honor of actually talking with you on the air face-to-face about the first of your two upcoming shows with Mike which was scheduled, if I recall, for the following week. John, I wish you continuing success in your ALL future ventures. It will be most-well-deserved! And I personally would love to see more "Girl Group" (and maybe even a "Girl Solo Act") books from you! Ronnie Allen -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 4 Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:02:07 -0400 From: Mike Edwards Subject: Casino Classics 2; Gabby; Barbara English Leonardo Flores writes: > "I'm going to pick up that Bob Crewe "Jay" 45 on that > Goldmine CD Vol #2 ASAP! I read about it in the book > and I'm looking forward to hearing it. Thanks for the info!" You're welcome, Leonardo. Consider it a thank you for the great evening my family and I had at the Knitting Factory in September. Gabby was spinning the sounds and we are still trying to figure out how a gentleman from Peterborough or Northampton (or somewhere like that) came to be in Hollywood playing northern soul on a balmy September evening! I hope you enjoy Casino Classics 2. We have mentioned The Reflections and Jay (Traynor) but wait until you hear Barbara English's "You Got Me (Sittin' In A Corner)", if you've not already heard it - a sublime northern soul/girl group crossover sound. This is a highly recommended CD. Mike Edwards -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 5 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:28:04 EDT From: Ronnie Allen Subject: Open letter to John Clemente (#2) ..... regarding the Echelons John, This open letter is much briefer than the previous one I wrote about your "Girl Groups" book. Earlier this week I had the distinct and most-unexpected pleasure of meeting Eddie Brian, the man who produced a doo-wop group called The Echelons. It didn't occur to me until after we said our good-byes that this is the group that YOU have sung with! It's possible that you or others may have discussed them here but, if so, I may have missed that discussion. Could you tell us a little about the group, whether it still is active and -- if so -- whether you still perform with them? Ronnie Allen -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 6 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:47:12 +0100 From: Richard Williams Subject: Standing in the Shadows... Kingsley: Standing in the Shadows of Motown will be screened as part of the London Film Festival at the Odeon West End (Leicester Square) on November 15 at 3.30pm and on November 16 at 6.30pm. And may I say how much I've enjoyed the Reflections exchanges? While I'm obsessing about session musicians, does anyone know who played on "(Just Like) Romeo and Juliet"? Richard Williams -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 7 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:42:49 -0000 From: Don Subject: WALLPAPER OF SOUND - THE SONGS OF PHIL SPECTOR & FRIENDS An interesting omission from these recordings is, I believe, the first issue in the UK of "Uptown". Released on Fontana 267223 TF in 1962, by Anita Lindblom, with accompaniment directed by Harry Robinson (Lord Rockingham if I recall correctly). For some reason, the Crystals version was not released in the UK until some years later, maybe 1965, if memory serves. Does any member have any info on Ms. Lindblom ? I had never heard of her previous to this recording, n'or after it ... On a totally different subject, but why make two posts when one should suffice, I would appreciate any info available on a group who went by the name "The Girls" .. 1966 is the release date, Capitol the label .. # 5675. A side - A Dumb Song, written by Keith Colley (Enamorado?) and Nancy Mantz, B side - Chico's Girl, Mann and Weil, produced by Steve Douglas. No producer listed for the A side. Don -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 8 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:59:40 -0000 From: Mark Frumento Subject: In Shadow's shadow? I've been slowly digging through the wonderfully bizarre 8 CD set Jonathan King - King of Hits (thanks Alan for the recommendation). Most of the material is sung by him and is a mixture of his early hit period and his ongoing and very very weird recording career. At the end of CD 5 are two decent songs by a group called The Angelettes: "Don't Let Him Touch You" and "I Cried". JK's commentary on the tracks states that these were from his "Shadow Morton period". While I would not classify the songs as classic girl group sound they are an interesting update on that sound and I can sort of see the Shadow Morton comparison. Did the Angelettes record anything else or are they a Jonathan King fabrication? Brave souls looking for a very stange CD set should buy King of Hits. It is not for the faint of heart. There are some truly awful songs on it. But somehow "Who Let the Dogs Out?" (JK's version before it was a hit) coming right after "Everyone's Gone to the Moon" doesn't seem all that out of place. Go figure. I'd say it's like having 8 volumes of Kenny Laguna's Laguna Tunes. -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 9 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:54:02 +0100 From: Phil Chapman Subject: WALLPAPER OF SOUND - THE SONGS OF PHIL SPECTOR & FRIENDS Don: > An interesting omission from these recordings is, I believe, the > first issue in the UK of "Uptown". Released on Fontana 267223 TF > in 1962, by Anita Lindblom, with accompaniment directed by Harry > Robinson (Lord Rockingham if I recall correctly). There was also a version by Peter Gordeno (sung in the first person), with John Barry and his orchestra. Parlophone 45-R 4913. (1962) Dunno which came out first? > Does any member have any info on Ms. Lindblom ? I have some of her recordings in Swedish. They're generally jazz-ique MOR things. Anita's considerable recorded output spans 1956-1981, including versions of a couple of Beatles tunes (which guarantees her a place on any internet search engine). There's a listing (in Swedish) at http://perso.wanadoo.fr/denis.schwartz/anita.htm Phil -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 10 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:01:22 +0100 From: Mick Patrick Subject: Re: Standing In The Shadows Of Motown Kingsley: > ...any chance you could post the time and location for the Motown > Shadows film showing. Would it be NFT? Thanks... The Standing In The Shadows Of Motown documentary will be screened at the Odeon West End 2 on Friday November 15th at 15.30hrs and on the following day at the Odeon West End 1 at 18.30hrs. For tickets call 020 7928 3232 or visit the London Film Festival website at http://www.rlff.com There'll be a handful of Spectropop regulars at the Saturday show. Why not join us after the film for some refreshment Kingsley? Talking of Motown musicians, many of the players who later found fame in the Funk Brothers - legendary drummer Benny Benjamin, for example - got their start in the Todd Rhodes Orchestra, whose recordings for the Sensation label are collected on a new CD. Benjamin's earliest work is featured on this collection, along with the complete released output of Detroit songstress Kitty Stevenson, the mother of the great Motown producer/songwriter Mickey. Me? I have a taste for music of this early vintage. I dunno about other inhabitants of planet Spectropop. Click here to view the tracklist and read more about this release: http://www.acerecords.co.uk/gotrt/sept02/cdchd856.html Gotta go, two Bear Family CDs of UK and US girls singing in German arrived while I was out earning a crust. What's it to be? Kiki Dee's "Why Don't I Run Away From You" or "Walk On By" by Dionne Warwick? Decisions, decisions! MICK PATRICK -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 11 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:16:39 -0500 From: Dan Hughes Subject: Re: Standing In The Shadows Of Motown Mick mentions: >....the mother of the great Motown producer/songwriter > Mickey [Stevenson]..... Wonder if Smokey Robinson's "Mickey's Monkey" is in his honor?? -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 12 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:23:55 +0100 From: Phil Chapman Subject: RE: Standing In The Shadows... Richard: > From memory, check "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You".... Bullseye Richard! - This is up there with my all-time pop fav's. It opens with 4s on the ride cymbal, then Motown's industrial trademark rhythm kicks in with subtle but solid 8s on the hi-hat throughout. I went overboard about this one in detail when we were discussing riffs back in January. (Digest 338) http://www.spectropop.com/archive/digest/m806.html Admittedly, on "Money" the verses are 'tom' only, but I thought that was to provide a tribal feel. The ride cymbal on the chorus is almost louder than the tambourine. I like the way the beat is back to front on the third verse....intentional?, I doubt it. Occasionally, I've had the opportunity to explore Motown multi's, and the drums usually comprise the complete kit, sometimes supplemented by an overdubbed snare, or tom. I've not really researched thoroughly, but it's my loose understanding that Richard (Pistol) Allen specialised in the lazy shuffle feels, and Benny Benjamin gave us most of the driving 4s, leaving a legacy of classic intros and breaks that have been freely sampled time and time again. It's a pity he didn't live long enough to bask in the recognition. > And anyway if you couldn't hear them on the original 45s, > the way they were compressed and cut for radio, then to > all intents and purposes they weren't there. Ouch! - you're not getting away with that:-) For me, the magic of Motown and Spector (in particular) depends as much on what you can't discern as what you can. That's one of the main differences with cover versions and TOTP backing tracks; you don't really notice what's on the original, but it feels like there's something lacking on a cover version. Your comment brought to mind one of the more amusing anecdotal myths: that when drumkits were introduced into the Caribbean, the only experience of such things had been via US radio, and it was assumed, somewhat logically, that the loudest drum (on the off-beat) must be the largest! - hence the kickdrum role in ska, blue beat and reggae. > Which is surely why even > "Stop Her On Sight" and "Higher and Higher", great as they are, > don't sound like Hitsville USA tracks. I think we're both saying the same thing. I'm in total agreement about the degree of talent & skill involved. I forgot to include the wealth of writers, producers and arrangers. What I meant about the 'sound' was, that on a purely technical level, no matter what recording techniques are employed, if you assemble a rhythm section in a garage-style 'live' room, with minimal separation, instruments will clang and clatter in much the same way, according to the acoustic properties of the room. Of the two examples you cite: at the time, I thought "Stop On Sight" could easily have been a Motown record, and I believe the San Remo Strings on Ric-Tic (later released on Gordy after being bought up) were, in reality, Earl Van Dyke & the lads earning some extra pocket money. In fact, wasn't "Higher And Higher" EVD's crew as well? The only difference being that they weren't actually recorded in the Hitsville room. In other words, in my opinion, the authentic Motown sound couldn't be achieved solely by the creatives; it required an indefinable quality unique to that environment, which was borne of necessity and circumstance, rather than design. When Motown migrated to the smoother, drier Californian sound that flourished in the early 70s, they effectively ditched the 'classic' sound, because those early patterns don't really work on a dampened snare and close-mic'd kick. Of course, I'm bound to revise all this after seeing the film:-) Phil -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 13 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:32:12 -0400 From: James Botticelli Subject: Re: Standing in the Shadows of Motown Richard Williams wrote: > "Stop Her On Sight" don't sound like Hitsville > As ever, I stand to be corrected. Yes it do, but rather than correct, I'll just disagree, it's so much pleasanter. I submit that S.O.S. is quintessential Motown despite its former Ric Tic status (I pride myself on still owning the original 45 mint). Exhibit A. Motown bought Ric Tic and reissued SOS on an Edwin Starr Motown LP which has been re-reissued if you will. Exhibit B. In a blindfold test to my buddy's wife, we played it for her and asked her to identify the sound. Her reply immediately was "motown" Exhibit C. "Higher and Higher", which you also mentioned, was a Chicago tune which really did not try to imitate Motown but rather represented state-of-the-art Brunswick circa '67. -- JB -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 14 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:34:04 +0100 From: Mick Patrick Subject: Re: Chico's Girls Don: > I would appreciate any info available on a group who went by the name "The > Girls" .. 1966 is the release date, Capitol the label .. # 5675. A side - A > Dumb Song, written by Keith Colley (Enamorado?) and Nancy Mantz, B side - > Chico's Girl, Mann and Weil, produced by Steve Douglas. No producer listed > for the A side. The Girls were a Los Angeles sister act comprising Diane, Sylvia, Rosemary and Margaret Sandoval. Curiously, I am in possession of a taped interview with the lyricist Cynthia Weil in which she claims that she sang lead on this version of "Chico's Girl". I tend to think she might be mistaken, but you never know. Whatever, it's one GREAT record. Groups of the same name also recorded for the Vodka, Leaf, Memphis, 20th Century Fox, Atco and Scepter labels; some or none of which could be the Sandoval sisters. Does anyone know? Anyway, Debbie Harry's on TV in a minute and I have a pile of Private Stock 45s to stroke. MICK PATRICK -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 15 Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 23:05:36 +0100 From: Martin Roberts Subject: Reflecting on the Reflections Hi 'My Mate', I will play as requested "Out Of The Picture" to musica, nice song with a good 'fade in' when space permits. Stefan mentioned three sides of The Reflections arranged by Calello: "Poor Man's Son"/"Comin' At You" Golden World 20 (memo to myself-put glasses on BEFORE reading labels); both these co-prod Steve Venet with Rob Reece. Just as good (maybe even better) is "You're My Baby (And Don't You Forget It)" Golden World 19. Which is again arranged Calello AND produced by Steve Venet and (Mick's babe) Helen Miller, this pair co-wrote the song along with 'Pammy' Sawyer. Martin -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
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