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Spectropop - Digest Number 1246



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               SPECTROPOP - Spectacular! Retro! Pop!
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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Beatles For Sale/"Mr. Tambourine Man"
           From: Mike McKay 
      2. Re: Mixing
           From: John Sellards 
      3. Re: Clingers
           From: Patrick Rands 
      4. Re: Progressive Northern Soul?
           From: Scott Charbonneau 
      5. Re: "In The Rain"
           From: C Ponti 
      6. Re: Brilliant Tracks With One Inept Ingredient
           From: steveo 
      7. Re: "Unique"?  Well ...
           From: steveo 
      8. Re: Clingers
           From: Patrick Rands 
      9. Re: Clingers
           From: Patrick Rands 
     10. Picardy to Musica
           From: Clark Besch 
     11. Re: Progressive northern soul - additional
           From: Howard 
     12. Bill Lavorgna
           From: Lapka Larry 
     13. Re: Bobby Pedrick
           From: tatsurou sakaguchi 
     14. Re: Keep A Knockin'
           From: Simon White 
     15. Re: "In The Rain"
           From: Mike Rashkow 
     16. Re: More Arties
           From: John Fox 
     17. Ron Dante - Welcome!
           From: Jimmy Crescitelli 
     18. Re: Northern Soul cover-ups
           From: Ed Salamon 
     19. Re: "Down Home Girl"
           From: Richard Havers 
     20. Innocence, despair and mistakes
           From: Paul Bryant 
     21. Re: Worst 45 pressings
           From: Ron Bowdery 
     22. Re: Free As a Bird / Beatles mono mixes
           From: Mike McKay 
     23. Re: Alvin Robinson / NY drummers
           From: Artie Butler 
     24. Re: Pet Sounds mix whoopsies - I'm Waiting For The Day
           From: C. Ponti 
     25. Re: Cymbal & Clinger
           From: Patrick Rands 


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Message: 1 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:59:27 EST From: Mike McKay Subject: Re: Beatles For Sale/"Mr. Tambourine Man" Richard Hattersley wrote: > I love "I don't wanna Spoil the Party" as well. the intro to > "What you're Doing" sounds to me like Roger Mcguinn may have > used this as a template for Mr Tambourine Man's intro. I know > he says Bach's Joy of mans desiring was an influence, but if > you play both on a 12 string guitar, the notes are all the same > just jumbled up. Actually, "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" is quoted in the guitar solo for Gene Clark's "She Don't Care About Time", the B-side of "Turn! Turn! Turn!" But having said that, I'm astounded that I never made the connection between the respective intros of "What You're Doing" and "Mr. Tambourine Man" until you brought it up. Seems so obvious now! Mike -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:30:56 -0000 From: John Sellards Subject: Re: Mixing > John Sellards, > You are right! Mono mixes were carefully mixed by the > producer, and often the engineer was left to mix the > stereo. I have been witness to some of the legendary > Brill personnel, in the studio with them years back > (on the west coast, ironically), and saw them walk out > after doing the mono mix, telling the engineer, you do > the stereo mix! Actually, I was responding to somebody else who had made the point about the stereo mixes being done later by engineers - that practice is pretty well known, probably as a direct result of the story of the Beatles being around for the mixing of the mono Sgt. Pepper and not the stereo being told again and again. But it still amazes me how much more emotionally involving mono mixes usually are even for tunes you wouldn't expect a mix difference...like "Run To Him" by Bobby Vee, where the Johnny Mann singers seem to build and build throughout the record to a great climax at the end that is greatly diminished in the stereo mix. John Sellards -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 3 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:06:01 -0000 From: Patrick Rands Subject: Re: Clingers Jason wrote: > The Clingers aka The Clinger Sisters recorded a one-off 45 > (unreleased) with Curt Boettcher and Lee Mallory: "Sing to Me" > b/w "You Were Near Me". Hi Jason, I KNEW there was a Clinger/Curt Boettcher connection, but could never figure out how I knew that. Glad to see I was right. Whatever happened to the unreleased Clinger Sisters versions of "Sing to Me" / "You Were Near Me"? Have copies survived, does anyone have a copy or has it been reissued? I'm also a huge Curt Boettcher fan. There's live video footage of The Clingers performing songs they never released (like a raunchy Janis Joplin inspired version of The Beatles Good Day Sunshine), maybe they've got more unreleased studio recordings as well. :Patrick -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 4 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:21:59 -0000 From: Scott Charbonneau Subject: Re: Progressive Northern Soul? > There are also stories of records actually being destroyed > to preserve their rarity. The members of Canned Heat were notorious for doing this also. When they were on tour some of them, usually Bob "The Bear" Hite and one or two others, would hit record shops in search of old blues 78s. They would take the good stuff for themselves and, just so they were sure to have the only good copy, would put cracks in whatever remaining stock there was. Scott -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 5 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 16:35:51 -0000 From: C Ponti Subject: Re: "In The Rain" Ron Dante: > That was a great session ["In The Rain"]. Don't remember > the studio name but it was in The American Hotel in NYC. Rashkovsky: > Had to be Mirasound. No? > Mirasound it was. Great studio. Terrific live drum sound. Ron, Gene Radice,was the engineer,right? Remember his son Mark had those cool demos and was quite talented? Alot of us felt he was going to be huge.... C Ponti -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 6 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:05:36 -0800 (PST) From: steveo Subject: Re: Brilliant Tracks With One Inept Ingredient Mike McKay wrote: > And there's the very last note of the guitar solo > midway through "Roll Over Beethoven"....... > Luckily, it's over so quickly that it doesn't > really detract from what I think is perhaps > Chuck's greatest song and finest moment on record. Mike, I think that "No Particular Place To Go" is Chuck's finest moment. Stevo -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 7 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:01:04 -0800 (PST) From: steveo Subject: Re: "Unique"? Well ... > the question is whether "a major seventh in the vocal" > means a single voice making the leap of a major seventh, > or multiple voices singing a major-seventh chord. Chris, I be talking about 2 people on these two notes hanging on the interval, not just a melodic interval. Steveo -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 8 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:01:24 -0000 From: Patrick Rands Subject: Re: Clingers Glenn wrote: > I'd like see the Clingers single review on your site but there is > no link to it from the URL you gave. Can you help? I posted a link to a site just so you could see the image scan for their Kim Fowley produced single - I hope it worked here it is again (page down to see it): http://www.angelfire.com/d20/reefer/clingers.html > I recently mentioned the Levine/Brown songwriting team of "Tie A > Yellow Ribbon" fame in another post - one of their better songs was > the Rock Flowers' only charting hit, "Number Wonderful", also > covered by Jay and the Techniques. I think the Jay and the Techniques song is a different song altogether from The Rock Flowers/Picketywitch song, isn't it? :Patrick -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 9 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:08:59 -0000 From: Patrick Rands Subject: Re: Clingers JJ wrote: > Hey, check out item #88 in below record list, > i.e. RARE & cool looking DUTCH Clingers PS!.... > I'm not the seller, just spotted this new list, > after reading about the Clingers: > http://www.windys.nu/rsingak.htm Hi JJ, There's a sound sample too - sounds fantastic! I'd love to know if it really is The Clingers playing on that single - or if Kim Fowley had session players. :Patrick -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 10 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:45:17 -0000 From: Clark Besch Subject: Picardy to Musica Now going on Musica by request: "5:30 Plane" by Picardy. So good to know that people out there love "Montage" and "How Sweet it is"! This 45 is very hard to come by, as I've seen only my copy in all the years looking for it. Released early summer 1968, shoulda fit in well with Mamas & Papas crowd. It is somewhat reminiscent of "12:30" oddly enough, not only with a time in the title, but the chorus much like "young girls are coming to the canyon" vocals. The false ending is great too--always love that stuff and cold endings too. Jimmy Webb wrote "5:30 Plane" and produced it and the B side: "In the Name of You", which was written by Charles Merriam. I couldn't see it on my LP, but somewhere I thought there was a connection between Picardy and Love Generation. Anyone think so, or remember? Anyway, enjoy! Clark -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 11 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:14:38 -0500 From: Howard Subject: Re: Progressive northern soul - additional Phil M: > #1 it was, and I thank you for your answer. If I understand > it correctly, "ordinary" Northern soul refers to the older- > discovered records, and "progressive" to those discovered more > recently. Is there any particular difference between the records > themselves, though, other than when they were picked up on by the scene? Yes, that's basically correct Phil, although due to the changing tastes of the 'progressive' northern soul scene, a more diverse blend of tempos have (especially mid tempo & beat ballads) become more acceptable in the grand scheme of things. Also, some all nighters have become multi-room affairs where you can hear 'oldies', new 6T's, R&B and 'modern' soul (modern soul is another strange tag, as it can incude records dating back to the 70s!). It's all getting mighty confusing here :-? cheers.. Howard -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 12 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 05:29:58 -0800 (PST) From: Lapka Larry Subject: Bill Lavorgna Bill Lavorgna in recent years has moved totally away from this type of music. He has been the drummer in Liza Minnelli's backing bands for quite a long time. During her concerts, she basically refers to him as "her best friend in the world", and since he has been with her forever, you have to believe her. And yes, he is a terrific drummer, even on her material. Larry Lapka -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 13 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 05:47:34 -0800 (PST) From: tatsurou sakaguchi Subject: Re: Bobby Pedrick Phil Hall wrote: > Does anyone know what happened to Bobby Pedrick, > aka Robert John, who had his first minor hit in > the late 50s at age 12 and had several bigger > hits in the late 60s and 70s? His cover of > "Maybe" sounded a lot like Arlene Smith. I think Bobby's favorite songs are Summer Nights Dining and Dancing -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 14 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:49:49 +0000 From: Simon White Subject: Re: Keep A Knockin' Phil Milstein wrote - > About 2/3rds of the way through Little Richard's most manic > recording, "Keep A-Knockin'", the speed of the whole recording > suffers a brief "wow", as if the engineer inadvertently brushed > his hand against one of the tape reels for a second. Not that > they usually need it, but I like things like that -- they give > the song an extra little hook. "Keep A Knockin'" is actually only about 60 seconds long and then spliced together. There is another verse, not in the original, with the line - "I'm drinkin gin and you can't come in" Simon Holy Mackerel! -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 15 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:59:24 EST From: Mike Rashkow Subject: Re: "In The Rain" C Ponti writes: > Gene Radice,was the engineer,right? Remember his son Mark > had those cool demos and was quite talented? Alot of us felt > he was going to be huge.... More likely it was Brooks Arthur, but I was among those who heard Mark Radice and thought he would be GIANT. I think Gene Radice produced a pretty darn good record, was possibly Ben E. King, called, "What Is Soul". Di la, Rashkovsky -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 16 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:42:18 EST From: John Fox Subject: Re: More Arties > Great to get information about New York session drummers > of the '60s. We have Artie Wayne and now Artie Butler. In the spirit of the above comment from Richard Williams, I'd like to put in a word for NY's answer to LA's Steve Douglas, namely Artie Kaplan. I met Artie in 1985. He was leading the pit band in the short-lived (but fantastic) Broadway show, "Leader of the Pack" starring Ellie Greenwich and Darlene Love (whom I also met outside the stage door, but that's another story). Artie stayed in the pit and talked to me for a long time after the show, and claimed to have played sax many big hits recorded in NY in the 60s, particularly for Neil Sedaka and on all of the Carole King-related stuff on the Dimension label. He was a pleasure to talk to, and maybe one of the other Arties knows if he's still around today? John Fox -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 17 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:04:48 EST From: Jimmy Crescitelli Subject: Ron Dante - Welcome! Welcome aboard... just want to let you know that "Sugar Sugar" was THE record in my Brooklyn neighborhood for many, many, many months... it was the first song I ever danced to... I was 13 years old for most of that year..... ! Keep up the good work! Jimmy Crescitelli -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 18 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:55:51 -0000 From: Ed Salamon Subject: Re: Northern Soul cover-ups Regarding 'destroying' labels (aka 'cover-ups') on the Northern Soul scene: In the 60s, I deejayed dances in Pittsburgh where the djs likewise sometimes destroyed labels, rather than cover them up with cut out labels. I have many such trashed records in my collection. The idea, of course, was that you didn't want other dance djs to know what you were playing and get your "exclusive". Record were not usually announced at the dances, but those djs that had radio shows, often gave their unknown records different titles and artists, if they announced them at all. For example, on Mad Mike's radio shows, "Certainly All" by Eddie Jones on J-B became "Turn Me On"; "Garlic Bread", an instrumental by Gary and Larry on Goliath, became "The Breather" and so on. Ed -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 19 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:47:28 +0000 From: Richard Havers Subject: Re: "Down Home Girl" > ...and let's not forget Artie Butler's "Down Home Girl" which > he co-wrote with Jerry Leiber and cut on Alvin "Shine" Robinson. > ...and got covered by the Rolling Stones ! The Stones' version was cut on Nov 2 1964 at RCA Studios, Hollywood with Dave Hassinger. In all 6 Tracks were cut that day: Marvin Gaye's 'Hitch Hike', Solomon Burke's 'Everybody Needs Somebody To Love', Otis Redding's 'Pain In My Heart', Barbara Lynn Ozen's 'Oh, Baby', Mick & Keith's 'Heart Of Stone' and 'Down Home Girl', Jack Nitzsche played keyboards on some tracks including 'Down Home Girl'. Andrew Oldham (Disc 14.11.64): "We used the RCA Studios in Hollywood, & the whole set-up was terrific. We completely insulated ourselves from the outside. The boys records for 15 hours non-stop, from 11am to 4am, & I spent another 3 hours in the studio overdubbing & editing the masters. England won't get the first of these releases at least until January. They'll most likely come out in the States first. This session has produced a new Stones sound, & certainly brought out the best of Keith, whose guitar playing was magnificent. The only outsider was Jack Nitzsche, who played a toy piano, & was able to make it sound like any instrument you like, & on some tracks, it even sounds like a trombone. He played straight piano on other tracks". Keith (Disc 14.11.64): "The atmosphere & studio, plus the fact that we knew we had good material, made the session a good one. We didn't think it would work out at first, as the studio is so gigantic we were terrified to use it. Then Andrew hit on the idea of putting us in one corner, shutting off the main lights & just using a spotlight, to make it more cosy. The control room was also in darkness. A bit mad, but it did the trick. Me & the boys really let ourselves go. Bill should be mentioned. He really did a great job on one number, double-tracking on bass & six-string bass. The more I think about the session, & listen to the finished tapes, I agree that these are the best we've done so far. I liked working on all of the tracks, but it was fun recording the one Mick & I wrote". Richard -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 20 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 05:55:26 -0800 (PST) From: Paul Bryant Subject: Innocence, despair and mistakes Hi Poppers For some very different versions of some Spectropop favourites, with many many mistakes, offkey singing and yet with much beauty too, check out the Langley Schools Music Project http://www.keyofz.com/keyofz/langley/ pb __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 21 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:49:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Ron Bowdery Subject: Re: Worst 45 pressings Worst 45 Pressings. Ron Bowdery "I'll step down" by Lee Diamond & the Cherokees, sounded fine in the Studio, when it was released Lee Diamond had developed a lisp on the "step" of the title. Then the recording was re-mixed, I think as on some copies the lisp had disappeared. -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 22 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:12:06 EST From: Mike McKay Subject: Re: Free As a Bird / Beatles mono mixes Michael Carpenter wrote: > Free As A bird by the Threetles brings tears to my eyes. I > reckon it's some of the best 'Beatles' harmony singing.. a > wonderful track. I feel the same way, and yet it's amazing the amount of carping you heard by hardcore Beatles fans about this and "Real Love." It just seemed like some were bending over backwards not to like the Threetles project or find fault with it in some way. Yes, I could have done without the Jeff Lynne drum sound, but beyond that they're both very enjoyable, and I certainly agree with you about the harmonies in the middle section of "Bird." Just remarkable. > As for mono mixes being the 'real' mixes. I've always been > surprised in all the re-issueing of old stuff that mono mixes > aren't more prevalent. I was so glad on the Motown singles box > sets and Beatles singles and EP box sets to hear the mono > versions. For trainspotters like us here on S'pop who know the > stereo mixes were almost always quickly knocked off by house > engineers, there's something unsatisfying about only having access > to the stereo versions... like we're only getting part of the > vision. Especially surprised the Beatles haven't made more use of > the mono mixes in re-issues, especially as the first real bonofide > stereo mix wasn't really made until 1969. Well, I would say 1968 for sure and The White Album, which wasn't even released in mono in the States. But your larger point is one I've been on about for years and years. It's criminal that there's no legitimate mono release of "Revolver" and "Sgt. Pepper" in particular, as there are great differences in the mixes between the mono and stereo versions. I don't think it's too much to ask that the work of THE band of the 20th century be available *in the way the artists intended it to be heard*. And yet, you have the "stereo at all costs" people bitching because the first four albums are only available in mono (as opposed to the God-awful split stereo of the first two...why anyone would actually want to listen to that is entirely beyond me). (And by the way, Michael, may I assume from the "au" in your Email address that you're Michael Carpenter of power pop fame, artist on one of my very favorite songs of the 1990s "Tonight"? If so, it's very nice to "meet" you!) Mike -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 23 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:38:47 EST From: Artie Butler Subject: Re: Alvin Robinson / NY drummers Hi Richard, No I did not arrange "Fever" by Alvin Robinson. I do not remember. Sorry. Artie Butler -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 24 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:24:57 -0000 From: C. Ponti Subject: Re: Pet Sounds mix whoopsies - I'm Waiting For The Day Watson Macblue wrote: > The chat on Here Today and the bad edit in Wouldn't It Be Nice > are neither the only nor the worst mix horrors on Pet Sounds. > The one that gets me every time (to the extent of spoiling the > track for me) is at the end of I'm Waiting For The Day. Listen > carefully when Brian sings the phrase "when you can love again" > for the last time. This was obviously punched in directly over > a previous take; when Brian reaches the end of the second > syllable of "again", the punch-in ends abruptly, and the tail of > the earlier take leaps out for a split second. The engineer > should have wiped at least till the end of the next measure > before punching out - it's not as though there's something else > nearby on the same track (surely?) that needed to be preserved. > An engineer who dropped a stitch that big these days could > reasonably expect a spell in the Re-Education Camps. It's one > of the things that gets fixed in the stereo mix (which, let me > say immediately, I otherwise loathe - the stereo Sloop John > B and You Still Believe In Me are unlistenable in my book). How about on "Here Today", where during the instrumental break I can here Brian call to Chuck Britz, "Chuck??" None of PET SOUNDS is unlistenable to me, though "Sloop" never seemed to fit with the rest of the work. C Ponti -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 25 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:27:24 -0000 From: Patrick Rands Subject: Re: Cymbal & Clinger Austin Roberts wrote: > Here's an interesting item, I think. Johnny Cymbal and Peggy > Clinger were in love and inseperable (as well as recording as > Cymbal and Clinger) until not long before Peggy died. Sad day. Hi Austin, Very sad indeed, she was an amazing, amazing talent. Hopefully Peggy and Johnny will enjoy my radio show this friday - it's in both of their honor. Cymbal and Clinger had a song called Sunshine Man on a single released by Judd Hamilton, which also had a song by you and Johnny called Baltimore. Here are the details: Sunshine Man (Cymbal / Clinger) / Baltimore (Cymbal / A. Roberts) Produced by JC and JH / Arranged by Don Hackett American International Records (AIR) A-1092/A-1093 (Promotional copy) /Manufactured by Forward Records Do you remember this single or Judd Hamilton? I'd love to know more about him and who he is. Also, there's a Johnny Cymbal project called Brother John (2 singles) - one of which I know had arrangements by Jimmie Haskell and was produced by George Tobin - both sides are great - Polyanna (Paul Davis) and Smokey (Cymbal / Clinger). :Patrick -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
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