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Spectropop - Digest Number 1239



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               SPECTROPOP - Spectacular! Retro! Pop!
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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Long After Tonight Is All Over
           From: Ken Silverwood 
      2. Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
           From: Mike McKay 
      3. Re: Most Inept Hit
           From: James Holvay 
      4. Re: Grapefruit; Jill Gibson; Celine Dion
           From: Mark Frumento 
      5. Re: The Chiffons - "What Am I Gonna Do with You"
           From: Mike McKay 
      6. Ineptness: "There Goes My Baby"
           From: ACJ 
      7. Re: Inept must be a compliment
           From: Mike McKay 
      8. Re: British cover versions
           From: Fred Clemens 
      9. Re: Fingertips
           From: Mike McKay 
     10. How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient
           From: Skip Woolwine 
     11. the first mouseketeers?
           From: Mary 
     12. Kane & Abel and The Taylor Brothers
           From: Martin Roberts 
     13. Re: 24 Hours From Tulsa-Guitar part
           From: Steveo 
     14. Re: 4 Seasons drummer
           From: Monophonius 
     15. Re: Ineptness: "There Goes My Baby"
           From: steveo 
     16. Two Big Welcomes!
           From: Mark 
     17. Re: Grapefruit?
           From: Mark Frumento 
     18. Re: Brilliant Tracks With One Inept Ingredient
           From: Mark: clevesoulie@netzero.com
     19. Re: Jan & Dean, and our new Spectropoppers
           From: John Fox 
     20. Drummer on 4 Seasons' "Dawn"
           From: Michael Edwards 
     21. Re: Rapper DJs' use of vinyl records
           From: James Botticelli 
     22. Re: British cover versions
           From: Rat Pfink 
     23. Re: Jill Gibson
           From: David Salter 
     24. Re: Fingertips
           From: Joe Nelson 
     25. Re: Alder Ray / Gerri Granger
           From: Mick Patrick 


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Message: 1 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:46:06 -0000 From: Ken Silverwood Subject: Long After Tonight Is All Over I am a great lover of the above song since buying Jimmy Radcliffe's recording of it back in 64/65. Since then I have found other versions by Dusty Springfield, Irma Thomas, Paris Sisters & recently Julie Rogers. I have a version on tape which I would like to play to musica when the space comes available, as I don't have a clue who the female singer is. Does anyone know of any other versions? Also wasn't Jimmy Radcliffe road manager for Gene Pitney at some point & did Gene ever record the song perhaps on an album. Ken On The West Coast. -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 2 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:41:01 EST From: Mike McKay Subject: Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient! Paul Bryant wrote: > Another notable vocal is on the Beatles "If I Fell" > on which Paul McCartney has a high harmony to maintain > for the whole song - eventually his voice cracks, but > as they were really pushed for time they had to leave > it in. On the stereo version, yes. For the single and the mono LP, they duped the first time Paul sang this (without the crack) and pasted it in for the second one. One of many examples of this...perhaps the most notable being the way John Lennon's singing of the entirely wrong words in the last verse of "Please Please Me" was left in on the stereo version but fixed in just the same manner for the single and mono versions. Mike -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 3 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:00:49 -0800 From: James Holvay Subject: Re: Most Inept Hit David Coyle asks: > Was "Love You So" by Ron Holden actually a hit? > "Love You So" entered the Billboard pop chart on April > 10, 1960, and eventually peaked at #7 nationally on both > Billboard and Cashbox's Top Ten charts. It started off > as a regional #1 hit first -- the flipside, "My Babe," > was #2 -- in the Seattle area (according to Pat O'Day, > the program director at KJR). Bob Keane picked it > up for wider distribution via his Del-Fi label. My niece on my now "ex-wife's side, married one of Ron Holden's sons. I met Ron Sr. at their wedding quite a few years ago. He was a great guy. We talked for hours about those early days of rock'n'roll and Bob Keane. He past away a few years ago. After the service, they had a "get together" in the Church hall and it was like a rockn'roll revue straight out of the 50's. A lot of the older do wop groups showed up and sang. I believe Donnie Brooks organized it and MC'd the show. He did a terrific job. Ron Jr., is a record producer and has a track on the recent DMX album. -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 4 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:59:13 -0000 From: Mark Frumento Subject: Re: Grapefruit; Jill Gibson; Celine Dion Bob Rashkow wrote: > Grapefruit's 1st album is nothing short of incredible sounds. > My favorites are "Ain't It Good" and "Theme for Twiggy" which > was renamed at the last minute but not quickly enough for the > revised title to make it onto the record itself. So "Give it One More Try" is in fact the same song as "...Twiggy?" > Now that we know that Jill Gibson indeed had her own terrific > version of "It's As Easy As 1,2,3", which I am fortunate enough > to have and play every chance I get, I did NOT know she was one > of the Mamas and Papas, even if for a brief time. Also didn't > know she was Jan Berry's main squeeze. Wonderful talent. Oh boy, I agree! I think Gary Zekley mentions her knack for phrasing and melody in an interview somewhere. Does anyone know what she's doing these days? (sure this question has been asked before) -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 5 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:59:25 EST From: Mike McKay Subject: Re: The Chiffons - "What Am I Gonna Do with You" I wrote: > This gives me the opportunity to pose a question I think I know the > answer to, but I'll throw it to the experts here to confirm that which > I dread: has The Chiffons sublime "What Am I Gonna Do with You (Hey > Baby)" ever been reissued anywhere on the planet on CD? There are many > Chiffons comps with just about everything (other than the "Secret Love" > tracks) on them, but I've yet to see this anywhere. Art Longmire replied: > Mike, did Lesley Gore record a version of "What Am I Gonna Do With > You"? I haven't heard the song by the Chiffons, so I can't compare it > to Lesley's tune (which I heard several times on a restaurant > jukebox). Lesley's version was outstanding -- your description of the > Chiffons' track has me interested in hearing it as well. Yes, Art, it's the same song in both cases. Lesley does a nice job, but there's no comparison between her version and The Chiffons'. Judy Craig's vocal, filled with resignation and regret, and the indescribably beautiful back-up vocals make this a truly transcendent record. Mike -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 6 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:01:04 -0500 (EST) From: ACJ Subject: Ineptness: "There Goes My Baby" Okay, here's my contribution to the "ineptness" discussion. I've never understood why the Drifters' "There Goes My Baby" has those two tympani rumbling away in the background, neither of which is in tune with the rest of he song. Perhaps there's a story behind it? ACJ (also glad to welcome Messrs. Thaxton and Butler to S'pop) -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 7 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:06:52 EST From: Mike McKay Subject: Re: Inept must be a compliment Ian Slater wrote: > What's this - all my favourite records being discussed for being inept? > Angel Baby, 1000 Stars, Louie Louie and now Wild Weekend - surely the best > Rock n' Roll instrumental ever. Shirelles off key - heresy! Well, surely not heresy when referring to "fall apart" at the end of the bridge of "Tonight's the Night"! Nevertheless, I like the song a lot. Overall though, I've always put The Shirelles down a notch in the girl group hierarchy, as their backing vocals just aren't as sharp as The Chiffons' or even The Shangri-las' (no contest, my two favorite girl groups). Still, The Shirelles did some good stuff too. > Perhaps "inept" means "brilliant" and all my dictionaries > are wrong? Really, does it matter if some obscure (to some > of us, anyway) musical rules are broken, or mistakes are made, > if the result sounds brilliant, as all these records do? That's the big "if", of course. Certainly "feel" and "soul" can make up for a lot of less-that-perfect vocalizing or playing. But sometimes inept really is inept and gets in the way. I'd have to think of some examples...really, I'm much more on your side about this. > The fogginess of "Sally Go the Roses" (deliberate we all now know -- thanks > Dan & Artie) was essential to the appeal of that record. So why not "wrong" > notes, "flat" singing, "out-of synch" drums, etc., if the result sounds > great? Lets call it "improvisation". I agree 1000% in the case of "Sally" -- there's no other record like it, and its spell is just as strong now as it was nearly 40 years ago. But it would be hard to argue that the out-of-synch drums in "Wild Weekend" "sound great". They just sound wrong, and detract from rather than add to the song's impact. Again, I'm not saying I dislike the song as a whole...I like it well enough. But you would have to stretch a point to say it was a good thing that the drummer got out of whack on it. Mike -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 8 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:32:32 -0000 From: Fred Clemens Subject: Re: British cover versions Howard: > Another interest of mine is 'British cover versions'. > I have a decent collection of them, but still on the > search for many more! Has anyone heard or have details > of First Gears version of Dobie Gray's 'The In Crowd? Haven't heard of that one. But have you heard the Kestrels "There Comes A Time", a cover of the Jack Scott song. It's from 1959, and was flipped with "In The Chapel In The Moonlight". Released on the Pye-Nixa label (which soon became Pye, it was available on both labels), it was their only release to make it to the US, on Laurie Records in 1960. The group was fronted by Roger Greenaway, and also included Tony Burrows. They lasted until 1964, a later member being Roger Cook. Of course you know David and Jonathan... (Roger and Roger), and the Pipkins (Roger Greenaway and Tony Burrows). The Kestrels toured with the early Beatles, and backed a few British acts along the way (Billy Fury, Lonnie Donegan, and Benny Hill). They were also lucky enough to record the Beatles, "There's A Place". Another odd cover I brought up in an earlier thread would be Kenny Lynch's cover/remake of Bill Giant's "Poof", but as "Puff (Up In Smoke)". Lynch is also said to be the first non-Beatle to have recorded a Lennon-McCartney song, "Misery", a song turned down by Helen Shapiro. Lynch happened to be on the same tour when it was offered to Helen's manager. And you must have Dave Newmann's cover of the then US Hit by Robert John, "The Lion Sleeps Tonight". He even did his best to sound like Robert. -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 9 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:11:31 EST From: Mike McKay Subject: Re: Fingertips Steveo wrote: > How about the bass player who gets lost and is asking on > Stevie Wonder's first big hit ("Fingertips"), "What key... > what key?" (lol) I love it! The way I always heard it, there was a change of band personnel onstage, as it was thought Stevie was finished with the song. So when he came back to the mic to reprise a verse, the new bass guy was caught unawares. This explanation certainly makes more sense, as Stevie is singing in the same key he's sung the rest of the song in, so the original bass player would have known what it was. But if there's another, "official" explanation at what happened at this moment, I'd love to hear it. Mike -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 10 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:17:54 -0600 From: Skip Woolwine Subject: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient At the end of Glen Campbell's vocal on "Guess I'm Dumb" which appears on The Honeys' recent compilation of various Brian Wilson productions, you plainly hear someone - probably Brian - exclaim "Awesome!" over the talkback among the music track. -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 11 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:17:47 -0000 From: Mary Subject: the first mouseketeers? Does anyone know where the first mouseketeers are? Do they still live here in Southern Calif? Looking for: Dennis Day, Cubby O'Brien, Dorren, Darlene, Karen, Tommy, Lonny, Bobby. And is Annette doing ok these days? Thank you for any info.... -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 12 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:15:52 -0000 From: Martin Roberts Subject: Kane & Abel and The Taylor Brothers A new batch of records revealed a few pleasant surprises, one of the most interesting being The Taylor Brothers "Showdown", United 98. A wonderful mid-60s Four Seasons' homage, with a Shangri-Las twist, the middle break features a "Leader of The Pack" semi-spoken section, complete with "Kill 'im, Kill 'im" and "Yeah, we hear he's got a bad reputation"! A BIG production and one I'll play to musica when space permits. The main credit on this obscure label is James Butler co-writer, arranger and conductor. On the B-Side "Your Last Chance", a more traditional Four Seasons clone (i.e. also fab) it states, "Recorded In Chicago" and all the credits belong to Mr. Butler. Now I'd like to think he's Artie's brother but if not... We've discussed James Holvay's super Righteous Brothers-styled homage to Phil Spector by Kane and Abel many times. First released as "Break Down And Cry" on Destination and then as "He Will Break Your Heart" on Red Bird, now the record is so good I'm glad they played it twice with albeit slight differences. James wrote an informative and fascinating account of the original recording (message #14528) the only omission being the name of the astute engineer, the credit on the label reveals him to be Stu Black. Besides no engineer credit on the Red Bird release the other credits remain more or less the same. With one major difference, 'Peterson' has joined Mr Holvay as co-writer. I'd assumed this was a biz credit, "I'll put your record on a big label you give me a cut on the take", sorta thing. But...a BMI search apparently revels that James Butler (Peterson) are one and the same. Perhaps James Holvay can fill in the blanks? Martin -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 13 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:50:51 -0800 (PST) From: Steveo Subject: Re: 24 Hours From Tulsa-Guitar part Guy Lawrence wrote: > A friend once told me that the Gene Pitney's "24 Hours > from Tulsa" contains just such a moment. Apparently, > the ding!-ding!-ding! notes played on the guitar as > Gene sings his final "What can I do?" are actually > the guitarist using a common session musician's code > to signal that he has just made a mistake. The moment > comes at 2.36 on my CD copy. Surely someone out there > will know if this story is true. Guy, Concerning the 3 guitar notes ar 2:36 on 24 Hours From Tulsa,I just had to respond to this one, as it was one of my favorite records for a long time... Knowing the concept of the soft guitar lead, used also on "Donna Means Heartbreak", I believe the guitar part is playing a triplet with the first part of the triplet silent. I believe that was all it was, an artistic expression, instead of a signal for a mistake..Would be interested to know if otherwise. Steveo -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 14 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:26:36 -0000 From: Monophonius Subject: Re: 4 Seasons drummer Buddy Saltzman was the 4 Seasons' drummer on the early hits like "Big Girls Don't Cry", "Walk Like A Man", et al. -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 15 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:28:15 -0800 (PST) From: steveo Subject: Re: Ineptness: "There Goes My Baby" ACJ wrote: > Okay, here's my contribution to the "ineptness" discussion. > I've never understood why the Drifters' "There Goes My Baby" > has those two tympani rumbling away in the background, neither > of which is in tune with the rest of he song. Perhaps there's > a story behind it? Andrew, Regarding "there Goes My Baby":There was a write up in an old magazine about this record. When arranger Ray Ellis heard the playbacks of this song he arranged, he said, I believe it was to Leiber and Stoller, "You're not really gonna release this piece of crap are you?" (referring to the fact that it sounded all out of tune, etc.) I believe the duo songwriting team or someone like Wexler or Ertegun thought it was haunting sounding, and had a "Certain sound"...indeed it did! Steveo -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 16 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:59:51 GMT From: Mark Subject: Two Big Welcomes! Hi and welcome to two legends, Mr. Lloyd Thaxton and Mr. Artie Butler. You've both found one of the most happening groups on the Net! :) Best, Mark -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 17 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:46:50 -0000 From: Mark Frumento Subject: Re: Grapefruit? Mark Wirtz wrote: > re: the pretense "One More Try" (now that I have heard it): > THAT track is an insult to Grapefruit's talents, and > even at my "cheesiest", I didn't revel quite THAT deeply > in muzak mediocrity. > P.S. THIS was produced by THE Terry Melcher?? Mark - I sent you the track called "Theme for Twiggy." We haven't confirmed that it's the same track as "Give it One More Try." But either way it's not representative of the quality of the record. Though I prefer the McCartney-produced version of "Lullaby", the album is mostly stunning, fully released, Beatlesque pop. Well done by Mr Melcher and considered one of the crown jewels of the early Apple era. Now about "cheezy": when do you think you were at your "cheesiest". I'm dying to know! ;>)) -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 18 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:19:43 GMT From: Mark: clevesoulie@netzero.com Subject: Re: Brilliant Tracks With One Inept Ingredient Hey Guys! I have to thank my good friend, Outsiders guitarist Tom King, for pointing this one out to me some time back. It's in "Johnny B. Goode" by Chuck Berry, during the first guitar solo: the piano player is supposed to hit a note on the piano with the rest of the band, but he's off by a second and it's very audible. Best, Mark -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 19 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:11:35 EST From: John Fox Subject: Re: Jan & Dean, and our new Spectropoppers previsouly: Even their premiere "Baby Talk" was dismal. Jan's even earlier premiere, "Jennie Lee" by Jan & Arnie, was worse! Talk about unintelligible at any speed--I defy anyone to listen to that record and come up with one word that's being sung, other then "Oh Jennie Lee". On a separate, more serious note, I loved the comment about Artie Butler being asked the Shangri-Las middle names. If any of you ever saw the Saturday Night Live routine where William Shatner attends a Star Trek convention and gets bombarded with trivia questions from Trekkie nerds about specific episodes, it was hysterical, but I hope we show folks like Artie and Lloyd Thaxton some respect by not inundating them with minutiae-related questions. I think Mary Weiss' middle name is Ginsberg. John Fox -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 20 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 03:53:13 -0000 From: Michael Edwards Subject: Drummer on 4 Seasons' "Dawn" Paul Bryant wrote: > Speaking of the 4 Seasons, can anyone tell me who the > fantastic drummer was on such songs as "Dawn (Go Away)" I was able to get a question in to the great arranger, Charlie Calello and he says, without hesitation, that Buddy Saltzman was the drummer on "Dawn". Not that I know who Buddy was; I'm just passing this on. Mike -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 21 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:35:20 -0500 From: James Botticelli Subject: Re: Rapper DJs' use of vinyl records Paul Bryant wrote: > Okay - here's the question. Everything the turntable > guy was doing could (surely?) be done by keyboards or > backing tapes if they're looping/repeating sounds. It > almost seems that all the guy is really doing is making > the scratching noise itself. If so, how pathetic is that? Not pathetic anymore than a tambourine player or a go go girl is pathetic. The scratching is a sound that's part of the production backdrop. And different points on different records yield different sounding scratch effects. Not for everyone to be sure. And probably especially for people who revere old music more than new. But I certainly have no problem with it. I like lip-synching too. And go go girls. Even more. > So, given all that - I'm thinking that the reason the > turntable guy is included as part of a live act is to > look cool. Everything a band does to perform is done to look cool. No? -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 22 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:35:12 -0500 From: Rat Pfink Subject: Re: British cover versions Howard: > Another interest of mine is 'British cover versions'. > I have a decent collection of them, but still on the > search for many more! Has anyone heard or have details > of First Gears version of Dobie Gray's 'The In Crowd? Fred: > Haven't heard of that one. I just played First Gear's version of "The 'In' Crowd" to musica. -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 23 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:28:25 -0600 From: David Salter Subject: Re: Jill Gibson Mark F: > Oh boy, I agree! I think Gary Zekley mentions her knack for > phrasing and melody in an interview somewhere. Does anyone > know what she's doing these days? Mark, To see what Jill Gibson's up to these days go to: http://www.gibsonarts.com/ David -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 24 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:05:12 -0500 From: Joe Nelson Subject: Re: Fingertips Steveo wrote: > How about the bass player who gets lost and is asking on > Stevie Wonder's first big hit ("Fingertips"), "What key... > what key?" (lol) I love it! Mike McKay: >The way I always heard it, there was a change of band >personnel onstage, as it was thought Stevie was finished >with the song. So when he came back to the mic to reprise >a verse, the new bass guy was caught unawares. >This explanation certainly makes more sense, as Stevie is >singing in the same key he's sung the rest of the song in, >so the original bass player would have known what it was. >But if there's another, "official" explanation at what >happened at this moment, I'd love to hear it. This certainly seems true, although it's possible that the fact that Stevie was performing in a different key than the one he'd recorded the song in originally might have added to the confusion. Joe Nelson -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 25 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:19:36 -0000 From: Mick Patrick Subject: Re: Alder Ray / Gerri Granger Phil Hall: > Just so you'll know, I clicked the link on your post for a photo > of Alder Ray, and after following the instructions on the page > explicitly, I got the message "Sorry, no matches found for 'Alder > Ray'". Are there any photos anywhere else? Doh! The link I gave *does* work. But try this one instead: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/spectropop/ Click on each image for a larger version. And while you're there, look in the "Miscellaneous" for loads more great photos. > As it's not out on CD - well, not to my knowledge - Gerri > Granger's "Just Tell Him Jane Said Hello" (Big Top 3150, 1963) > is now playing @ musica. Gerri deserves a whole CD of her own. > Fat chance, I guess. "Stick Close", anyone? Brian Davy: > Mick - Thanks for answering my request. Any chance that this > song might end up on one of your future compilations? Yes. it's scheduled for a forthcoming Leiber & Stoller compilation on Ace. But don't hold your breath because the Big Top logo is notoriously difficult to license. Something to do with the feuding Bienstock multi-millionaires who owned the logo. Hey la, Mick Patrick -------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
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